Cody Lundin depiction in Dual Survival

[Ultraman]

This is going to be unpopular but that doesn't usually stop me so I shall not let it now:

Why do any of us give a hoot about preserving any image of any celebrity? Why do any of us care if a celebrity is depicted in way that may not maximize their attractiveness?

(Snipped) .

I guess my point was it kind of looked like the show was going for the "Odd Couple" undercurrent, which I thought was a step down for a survival expert (Lundin) who was pretty much being introduced to prime time for the first time, if I'm not mistaken. For me, it was not about celebrity (I, too, could care less), it was about first introductions and somewhat about credibility. Many people will be seeing this guy for the first time, so I was just wondering why do it in this manner? (Parenthetical: Is he really dumb enough to risk frostbite crossing a glacier in socks?)

If having a foil gives more insight (which in many instances it can), then the producers are doing this right. I noticed in one of the clips, he ends up saying he does it this way because it's his lifestyle and life choice, so that particular instance became a sounding board for his cause and his beliefs. So in that case, I suspect it served a purpose for him. Maybe I am giving too much credence to a guy who is a bit loopy in some aspects.

I could really care less, I am not fanatical, just wondered why he would do it this way unless he had no choice. You know, idle chit chat

 

[j williams]

That's my philosophy as well. I respect both Lundin and Canterbury and appreciate both schools of thought. I too won't be running around bare-foot, but that doesn't take away the experience and skill of Lundin. I'm probably more in the Canterbury camp, but both have a wealth of knowledge. I really hope it turns out to be an educational show...both of these guys are professionals and understand the need to keep the show educational and not let the petty things distrupt their desire to teach and train survival.

ROCK6

:thumbup::thumbup:

 

[Wanderlust]

I really think this is going to be a great show. I do not know much about either one of these gentlemen but what I do know is that the both know their stuff. I think this is going to be great because it will show the extremes of the two main schools of thought in wilderness survival, and most of us will fall into the middle of this spectrum. I, for one, am really looking forward to hearing the arguments for both sides. As long as long as the editors don't mess it up it should be a really good and educational show.

 

[baldtaco-II]

I guess my point was it kind of looked like the show was going for the "Odd Couple" undercurrent, which I thought was a step down for a survival expert (Lundin) who was pretty much being introduced to prime time for the first time, if I'm not mistaken. For me, it was not about celebrity (I, too, could care less), it was about first introductions and somewhat about credibility. Many people will be seeing this guy for the first time, so I was just wondering why do it in this manner? (Parenthetical: Is he really dumb enough to risk frostbite crossing a glacier in socks?)

If having a foil gives more insight (which in many instances it can), then the producers are doing this right. I noticed in one of the clips, he ends up saying he does it this way because it's his lifestyle and life choice, so that particular instance became a sounding board for his cause and his beliefs. So in that case, I suspect it served a purpose for him. Maybe I am giving too much credence to a guy who is a bit loopy in some aspects.

I could really care less, I am not fanatical, just wondered why he would do it this way unless he had no choice. You know, idle chit chat

That's fair enough amigo.

Your measured reply is not one to which I am especially accustomed on this topic and it gives me heart. It is my experience that any of these people, once the machinery is going, become exalted to some unimpeachable position and people cling to them, blinkered, like the proverbial to a blanket. I find that absurd.

Idle chit chat then ;-), opens up an anecdote:

In the back when I was was influenced by John “Lofty” Wiseman. I attended a couple of his seminars, delighted in his sarcasm and knowledge, enjoyed flat out speed of his delivery, and even copied every useful part of his first book when it came out complete with colored pencil illustrations. Absorb him into my Borg. Years later and about six months ago he showed up on TV. Here was a tired old man living happily and modestly with his wife. He opens up one of his legendary survival tins and proceeds to paw through the contents as explains them to some young urban kiddie. I described what I saw as poor value now. Time has clearly done its work on him, his tin looks crude and simplistic by modern standards, and techniques and methods have become better understood. I'm confident he'd take no insult in the observation that he may well be a bunch happier now disengaged and with his feet up in front of a TV set like a regular shnuck. I got a very hostile response for those observations – something usually reserved for one that opens the little book of imaginary friends and laughs at a crucifixion. Celebrity zealots. The facts are he would not offer the same value to your team that he once did but the willfully myopic couldn't identify that. I guess that kind of thing primes me to expect willfully myopic attitudes whenever one of these people becomes exalted to guru / legend / expert status. They become sacrosanct and I'm very familiar with people digging in to preserve the status they have bestowed upon their favorites at any cost.

That phenomenon seems to be getting worse, or at least it seems to be getting worse from here. They're like celebrity Chefs; blah trained under blah who trained under Ramsey who trained under White and they all butt munch at the font of Escoffier. Then there's all the wannabes in waiting with a book for you to read or a field for you to camp in with the “I have |337 skills and have opened a school 'cos I'm ex-army”, designed to impress people that have never been army. Other qualifications for the would-be celebrity guru appear little more than “I have lived in the countryside all my life”. So what, 80 % of my friends fit in that category and it predicts little.

Not like I'd find it desirable or even plausible to set up some sort of standards framework to assess these survival gurus / celebrities but my mind seldom strays far from the fact there isn't one. There are just people earning a buck with the same array of motivations and tools as other people from the most noble to the most scandalous. The cleanest being right or wrong, but there is so much more. I genuinely feel it is imperative that this information is got out and that motivates me to snap at posts as I did above. We often hear of it being important to pass on skills to younger up and coming people getting interested in this topic as we are. If that is true then this is the most most important bit of advise I could ever offer to any of them – Ignore the celebrity. Even if it should exist because people will always want a hero or a village elder, it should be fleeting and fragile. These are the people you should be trying to knock down the most because if you can't that may tell you something useful. Adoration and artificial preservation of their longevity will not. Just like a freshman in any other discipline ignore the celebrity and the pop books, read the work in the original.

Anyway mate, seems clear to me that you aren't one of the fanatics so good enough. Take no part of this as level at you, just following along the chit chat on this theme. I think I'm now going to play the song that goes with these lyrics that convey nicely my sentiment on the current state of celebrity. ;-)

 

[Ultraman]

That's fair enough amigo.

Your measured reply is not one to which I am especially accustomed on this topic and it gives me heart. It is my experience that any of these people, once the machinery is going, become exalted to some unimpeachable position and people cling to them, blinkered, like the proverbial to a blanket. I find that absurd.

Idle chit chat then ;-), opens up an anecdote:

In the back when I was was influenced by John “Lofty” Wiseman. I attended a couple of his seminars, delighted in his sarcasm and knowledge, enjoyed flat out speed of his delivery, and even copied every useful part of his first book when it came out complete with colored pencil illustrations. Absorb him into my Borg. Years later and about six months ago he showed up on TV. Here was a tired old man living happily and modestly with his wife. He opens up one of his legendary survival tins and proceeds to paw through the contents as explains them to some young urban kiddie. I described what I saw as poor value now. Time has clearly done its work on him, his tin looks crude and simplistic by modern standards, and techniques and methods have become better understood. I'm confident he'd take no insult in the observation that he may well be a bunch happier now disengaged and with his feet up in front of a TV set like a regular shnuck. I got a very hostile response for those observations – something usually reserved for one that opens the little book of imaginary friends and laughs at a crucifixion. Celebrity zealots. The facts are he would not offer the same value to your team that he once did but the willfully myopic couldn't identify that. I guess that kind of thing primes me to expect willfully myopic attitudes whenever one of these people becomes exalted to guru / legend / expert status. They become sacrosanct and I'm very familiar with people digging in to preserve the status they have bestowed upon their favorites at any cost.

That phenomenon seems to be getting worse, or at least it seems to be getting worse from here. They're like celebrity Chefs; blah trained under blah who trained under Ramsey who trained under White and they all butt munch at the font of Escoffier. Then there's all the wannabes in waiting with a book for you to read or a field for you to camp in with the “I have |337 skills and have opened a school 'cos I'm ex-army”, designed to impress people that have never been army. Other qualifications for the would-be celebrity guru appear little more than “I have lived in the countryside all my life”. So what, 80 % of my friends fit in that category and it predicts little.

Not like I'd find it desirable or even plausible to set up some sort of standards framework to assess these survival gurus / celebrities but my mind seldom strays far from the fact there isn't one. There are just people earning a buck with the same array of motivations and tools as other people from the most noble to the most scandalous. The cleanest being right or wrong, but there is so much more. I genuinely feel it is imperative that this information is got out and that motivates me to snap at posts as I did above. We often hear of it being important to pass on skills to younger up and coming people getting interested in this topic as we are. If that is true then this is the most most important bit of advise I could ever offer to any of them – Ignore the celebrity. Even if it should exist because people will always want a hero or a village elder, it should be fleeting and fragile. These are the people you should be trying to knock down the most because if you can't that may tell you something useful. Adoration and artificial preservation of their longevity will not. Just like a freshman in any other discipline ignore the celebrity and the pop books, read the work in the original.

Anyway mate, seems clear to me that you aren't one of the fanatics so good enough. Take no part of this as level at you, just following along the chit chat on this theme. I think I'm now going to play the song that goes with these lyrics that convey nicely my sentiment on the current state of celebrity. ;-)

No, I agree with you. Fanboys do that a lot. I, too learned that these gods have feet of clay

 

[Angus McGunnigl]

I too hope it ends up being a good show.

From the clips it's seems as if they are at least being open to each others opinions/idea's.

I think outdoor survival requires that we think out of the box and adapt to the situation.

If they show that, I'll be satisfied.

 

[x39]

arctic Nova Scotia

I don't mean to offend you, but do you have access to a world atlas?

 

[Loosearrow]

I just hope the show will not be a forum to make anyone interested in survial an idiot. No back flips into unknown waters. Maybe we can pick up a few ideas from the show. I was once impressed with flint and steel, braintanning etc. Maybe the show will motivate a younger generation to see value in what we do and seek us out for the information we will freely give them. Other children may seek out your children because they have already learned these skills from you. Your children will understand the value of skills taught to them considered common place.

 

[PropThePolecat]

I don't mean to offend you, but do you have access to a world atlas?

I know what you mean...

What i meant was Nova Scotia during the winter. English is not my native language and things get lost when i translate them in my head , i know perfectly well where the arctic circle is...

 

[sodak]

This looks to be an interesting series. I'm always amazed at how many people will take something as gospel because "XXXXX" said so. It's the message that's important, not the messenger. Nobody bats 1000...

Take from it what works for you, discard the rest.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

baldtaco-II: I described what I saw as poor value now. Time has clearly done its work on him, his tin looks crude and simplistic by modern standards, and techniques and methods have become better understood. I'm confident he'd take no insult in the observation that he may well be a bunch happier now disengaged and with his feet up in front of a TV set like a regular shnuck.

Gee, bt, he's always spoken very highly of you.

While we all diminish in our 'golden years' , I don't think I'd feel shortchanged with Lofty along in a survival situation, that is, if he is as represented.

And you referred to 'the knife in the tree', so I'm assuming that's a reference to Mors Kochanski. Once again, I don't think I'd feel shortchanged..........

Just my 2 cents, of course.

Doc

 

[abo4ster]

Many on this board have similar thoughts as Lundin on the subject of survival TV. See here as it is worth a read and watching the entertaining video…

http://www.codylundin.com/survive_tv.html

I have attended several of Cody’s classes and stayed in touch with him over the years. FWIW and speaking from the heart, the guy is genuine and unlike just about all of us here, he makes a livelihood out of survival/primitive skills (and thus lives it). ANYONE etching out a living from a bushcraft school for more than a decade is going to be many many times the expert of me and most on this board, and that is OK, we have day jobs for our own reasons.

After letting it digest that they actually make a living from what we consider a hobby, think about one of these guys trying to do our job; it is probably what they would think about us trying to do theirs. Yet we are the pivotal armchair quarterback on these forums ~ hey it’s fun.

Trust me, I am not saying we should put these guys on a pedestal which sometimes happens; it is just they are good enough to be making a living at it and there are not too many of them out there, the law of supply/demand alone keeps that number down. Those that do make it, tend to have something to offer, I know Lundin and several others that do; your just not going to get it from a book, video, and especially TV...

There will be sensationalism on Dual Survivor, as without it wouldn’t make it on TV in our society today which is too bad. In the end though, hopefully some folks will get inspired about the environment, bushcraft, etc. and good will come from the series.

On a side note and as fate would have it, I ran into Dave Canterbury at the Blade Show yesterday. Super nice guy and couldn’t say enough great things about Cody. In talking with both now, they have obviously become good friends regardless of what we will see in editing. I wish them the best of success.

And because it came up, what qualifies someone as an ‘expert,’ I like Tim Smith’s philosophy from Jack Mountain Bushcraft on the subject. Hope to meet the man someday. Here is the link from his website…

http://www.jackmtn.com/assessment.html

Remember it is just a TV show. What's it really going to do for anyone when you put it in the context of this old proverb...

“Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand.”

Peace,

Chris

 

[ROCK6]

On a side note and as fate would have it, I ran into Dave Canterbury at the Blade Show yesterday. Super nice guy and couldn’t say enough great things about Cody. In talking with both now, they have obviously become good friends regardless of what we will see in editing. I wish them the best of success.

Crap...I know that was Dave Canterbury, but all the glitter from the tables impacted my ability to make the connection I would have like to sit and talked with him and his wife,

ROCK6

 

[baldtaco-II]

Gee, bt, he's always spoken very highly of you.

While we all diminish in our 'golden years' , I don't think I'd feel shortchanged with Lofty along in a survival situation, that is, if he is as represented.

And you referred to 'the knife in the tree', so I'm assuming that's a reference to Mors Kochanski. Once again, I don't think I'd feel shortchanged..........

Just my 2 cents, of course.

Doc

I suspect I will always very speak highly of him, but I wouldn't let that detract from the point I was trying to make. The point was about folk that believe X to be an expert or guru, how once they have invested in that the “halo effect” kicks in and these people become hero figures. The disciples following along behind seem to lose all their critical faculties. In Wiseman's case it is just the aging process but that is something I'd still take into account.

Broadening it out from just him I consider the aging process to have that effect on any of us. After all, most real world survival situations that are likely to occur in my sphere personal fitness is right near the top of factors likely to lead to a successful outcome. Similarly I'd stick obesity as a factor that is likely to reduce a persons value to me and so on. Sure they might have an encyclopedic knowledge of how to cook up whelks or make flint broadheads and whatnot but in scenarios that I consider most likely that's way down the list of attributes that I'd probably need. Conversely, what would almost certainly be an impediment would be having to mollycoddle some heavily sweating, wheezing, out of shape lardarse. Winding in the guru thing on top of that it gets interesting. As a person starts to head in that direction I start to demote them. One forum I go to has a guru that seems to smoke like a beagle. He espouses stuff round the fire and his plebs all listen in attentively but I certainly wouldn't want him on my team. I'd cheerfully swap what he knows about homebrewing dandelion and burdock for someone that didn't have lungs like John Wayne's saddle bags full of treacle. He may have been excellent value once but he isn't now. I'm convinced the positive halo effect people bestow on their gurus or experts blinds people to the sense in that as surely as a when a person is endowed with a negative halo and they are seen as all bad or consummately useless. My contention is that if one disregards the apparent expert or the guru and just looks for things that work all of this stuff becomes irrelevant.

To my mind the knife as a ladder thing makes for a great example of the role of the expert / guru and how plebs see them. If a 15yr old said it we might think “folly of youth” he'll grow out of that as he learns. If a 25yr old says that “perhaps he's a bit of a twat”. A 55yr old really should know better “..and if his other ideas are like that perhaps just avoid him completely”. Yet if a favorite guru says that the positive halo ensures it'll just get explained away or ignored. Again, dumping the gurus and apparent experts allows one to break free of that bind. One is free to take good ideas no matter where they come from whether the source is supposed to be an expert or a cretin. Just merit, no more no less. As clear as when Frank Zappa said “ladies you can be an asshole too”, the apparent expert or guru can also be a dipshit. If one ignores the celebrity and the positive halo thing and just learns stuff it is so much easier to see it.

 

[vector001]

I suspect I will always very speak highly of him, but I wouldn't let that detract from the point I was trying to make. The point was about folk that believe X to be an expert or guru, how once they have invested in that the “halo effect” kicks in and these people become hero figures. The disciples following along behind seem to lose all their critical faculties. In Wiseman's case it is just the aging process but that is something I'd still take into account.

Broadening it out from just him I consider the aging process to have that effect on any of us. After all, most real world survival situations that are likely to occur in my sphere personal fitness is right near the top of factors likely to lead to a successful outcome. Similarly I'd stick obesity as a factor that is likely to reduce a persons value to me and so on. Sure they might have an encyclopedic knowledge of how to cook up whelks or make flint broadheads and whatnot but in scenarios that I consider most likely that's way down the list of attributes that I'd probably need. Conversely, what would almost certainly be an impediment would be having to mollycoddle some heavily sweating, wheezing, out of shape lardarse. Winding in the guru thing on top of that it gets interesting. As a person starts to head in that direction I start to demote them. One forum I go to has a guru that seems to smoke like a beagle. He espouses stuff round the fire and his plebs all listen in attentively but I certainly wouldn't want him on my team. I'd cheerfully swap what he knows about homebrewing dandelion and burdock for someone that didn't have lungs like John Wayne's saddle bags full of treacle. He may have been excellent value once but he isn't now. I'm convinced the positive halo effect people bestow on their gurus or experts blinds people to the sense in that as surely as a when a person is endowed with a negative halo and they are seen as all bad or consummately useless. My contention is that if one disregards the apparent expert or the guru and just looks for things that work all of this stuff becomes irrelevant.

To my mind the knife as a ladder thing makes for a great example of the role of the expert / guru and how plebs see them. If a 15yr old said it we might think “folly of youth” he'll grow out of that as he learns. If a 25yr old says that “perhaps he's a bit of a twat”. A 55yr old really should know better “..and if his other ideas are like that perhaps just avoid him completely”. Yet if a favorite guru says that the positive halo ensures it'll just get explained away or ignored. Again, dumping the gurus and apparent experts allows one to break free of that bind. One is free to take good ideas no matter where they come from whether the source is supposed to be an expert or a cretin. Just merit, no more no less. As clear as when Frank Zappa said “ladies you can be an asshole too”, the apparent expert or guru can also be a dipshit. If one ignores the celebrity and the positive halo thing and just learns stuff it is so much easier to see it.

beautifully written, brother.

there are camp followers in every tribe though, jsut as there are loners, i am sure you will agree.

folks seem to be doomed to their own personalities.

vec

 

[x39]

English is not my native language and things get lost when i translate them in my head

I can relate to that. My Norwegian relatives find great humor in some of my linguistic gaffes. I salute you for being multi-lingual.

 

[baldtaco-II]

beautifully written, brother.

there are camp followers in every tribe though, jsut as there are loners, i am sure you will agree.

folks seem to be doomed to their own personalities.

vec

Thanks amigo.

I think I'm nearly exhausted here now but I kinda agree with you. I think it is more useful to me to think of people that are rather more independent in their thinking and those that are satisfied with the drippings from their ceiling than loners and followers but I think that's close enough for our purposes here.

One would think there have been enough episodes with experts spouting rubbish to warn people that their favorite expert is probably just as fallible too, but alas. A great example is that one wonders how many people had a light came on with the coffee-dehydration debacle. Unless it was a massive coincidence with a whole bunch of gurus all independently coming to the same erroneous conclusion it is pretty clear that each of them was just peddling what someone else said, devoid of any critical examination of the evidence on their own part whatsoever. To my mind that isn't a million miles away from someone simply plagiarizing a bad essay.

When you don't have gurus and just judge stuff on merit there is an advantage in that it easier to be eclectic in approach and just cut to the chase. Strip the rubbish away. Here I'm thinking of the example with those hunters or tracker gurus that pile on the pixie dust. Over there they often appear to try to ally themselves with American Indians and a steaming pile of mysticism – get into the mind of the animal, become the animal, think like the animal... .We're not safe from that in Europe save for it probably goes with along with someone strapping a pair of deer antlers on their head. In sharp contrast someone whose job it is to model such a creature says, “it has these effectors, it is fitted with these sensors, it can't see blah”. Get into the mind of the animal indeed. I thought the point was to model what the animal can do in yours. There seems no shortage of gurus / experts keen to pile on the blarney. The wonder of it all is it is always someone else's celebrity guru that is fallible but not yours. I say treat them all with equal suspicion as a matter of principle. Treat them just the same as one would a regular person with an idea, after all that is all they are.

.....

Nothing left to give.

 

[tknife]

So, you are saying that no one person can be an expert in their field? While I agree that they are but mete mortals, some are obviously much more accomplished in their given craft.

 

[storl]

Crap...I know that was Dave Canterbury, but all the glitter from the tables impacted my ability to make the connection I would have like to sit and talked with him and his wife,

ROCK6

He came by my booth and bought a firesteel. Really nice guy.

I talked to the guys at BHK and they said that the knife he used for the show was a BHK Pathfinder. When he got back, he gave it back to them. Dan or LT (I forget which one) had it on him, and you could tell that Cantebury had put it through some serious use and it had held up just fine.

 

[baldtaco-II]

So, you are saying that no one person can be an expert in their field? While I agree that they are but mete mortals, some are obviously much more accomplished in their given craft.

I believe the right conclusion to draw from what I have written is that whilst there are certainly people with expertise one should be very aware when one jumps from that to consider a person expert. If find it rather like the way some medical conditions are judged. Person X has X vs person X is an alcoholic. There is a tendency with the latter to believe it is the sum totality of a person. It's great for a heuristic, and it is in the nature of all of us to be parsimonious in our thinking like that, but one can't get beyond a gist-like understanding using it.

I think it would take me a very long time if I were to try to devise some kind of list of people that I had encountered out in meatspace that had expertise. Hell, one wouldn't even need to leave this site to find a guy positively brimming with it. Ever been on Levine's forum and watched BRL doing something he does brilliantly? It's delightful.

The thing I took issue with in this thread wasn't whether a person could have expertise, that is clearly possible. What I took issue with was the “impression management” aspect in the opening post. The way that blah may be depicted. Start down that road and you're heading to PR, spin, spin doctors, and all that. You're heading toward the preservation of the the celebrity image being important. The thrust of what I have been saying is one should avoid being sucked into that like it is a pox. If a person truly has expertise they will be robust enough to withstand attack in this arena just as surely as those with expertise do in others. If they come up short then that should be made known, broadcast it. Manipulating the depiction of an apparent expert or guru to avoid disappointments is cold comfort at best. Have at 'em the same as one would anyone else, and let the chips fall where they may. If they take a fee for their apparent expertise have at 'em even harder.

......
Concluded