Cold Forging

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I agree that the ultimate test of a knife is how it performs. This is "The proof is in the Pudding", as far as blades go.
That agreed upon, any claims about how that occurred must be at least based on fact. If a smith claimed his high quality blades were the result of his secret panther piss quench, would that make it true?

What caused this discussion was the statement about increasing the density, and the edge being permanently changed by cold forging. Density can not be increased by hammering the atoms and making them smaller or packed tighter together. The metallic bonding between the atoms is millions of times stronger than any hammer that strikes the steel. No smith has an arm strong enough to make it happen - The atoms may move left and right when hammered......but they won't get closer together.

In response to an edge being cold formed to a high hardness, That is the similar to the system used to make the friction forged edges on knives from Diamond Blades. There is a lot more than just cold working going on, but it sort of fits the description.
 
Now Stacy, just a cotton picking minute. Rubbing your girlfriends (or your wifes, but not both)
(at least not at the same time) boobs is always a good thing.:D

Bill

OK, Bill ... You got me there. This would make a great scientific study. Anyone want to get a test pannel together :)
 
OK, Bill ... You got me there. This would make a great scientific study. Anyone want to get a test pannel together :)
I'd imagine we would need to accumulate a vast amount of data to form any conclusions. Infact, evolution dictates that our medium is going through constant micro-changes. This experiment may need frequent recalibration.

Back on topic...

I think all we can do is present the facts and allow folks to make an educated decision. It used to be that bladesmiths were at the cutting edge(pun intended) of evolving metallurgical science. At some point, industry became the catalyst for advancement and blade makers fell idle. Some of us are now trying to play a game of "catch-up"... which should be easy, since the science is decades(if not, centuries) ahead of us. Knowledge is easy to obtain, beliefs are hard to let go of.
 
To your first question, you have indeed correctly grasped what I was suggesting and I can see no sound reason why it isn’t so, but equally I don’t have any example to show where it has been done and I suspect that I am on my own in suspecting that it may not only be valid but in certain ways better. Much of the intricacy of best practice heat treatment involves methods/times/temperatures/protocols to minimize the deleterious effects that otherwise accrue like excessive grain growth, grain boundary precipitation, diffusion in, diffusion out, carbide clumping and so on. Clearly volumes have been written and lives spent on such intricacies and not without cause. Fabulous results can be achieved that way, but I can’t help wondering if there isn’t a Gordian Knot situation going on for this very specific case.

Industrially I can see issues but when a number of skilled people come forwards and say they have given it their best shot, aiming for strains of 2.5 to 3.5, tested the results and come to nothing but grief, it is just too hard to do and doesn’t produce the results, I guess I will just shrug and consign the idea to the pile of things that sound like they should work but don’t. Works for the steel belts in your tires, though.

As to the second, Mete is quite right in pointing out that it is very, very complicated to say exactly what is going to happen in a specific case in advance. Tatsuo Inoue, co-author of the Handbook of Residual Stress and Deformation of Steel, did some detailed work specific to the process as used in a traditional Japanese katana. The version of this presentation that I have found with the clearest illustrations is here:

http://www.shibuiswords.com/tatsuoinoue.htm

Section 7 relates and shows how complicated the calculations are, it all depends on the rates of cooling, the hardening response of the particular steel, the response of the quenching medium, the properties and application of the clay. As the edge cools fastest, thinnest clay and cross-section, it initially shrinks fastest and may (or may not) yield in tension, being restrained by a larger cross-section of the spine, and take a permanent stretch making it longer at thermal equilibrium, all else being equal. That is just residual stress or distortion. In this case you could be left with a belly out curve and an edge in residual compression as the shorter spine tries to restrain the now longer edge.

But all else is seldom equal, the cooler edge will at any given time point also be stronger than the hotter spine, so there will be complicated ratio of areas at different temperatures to consider. And most significantly martensite is for all the reasons given by Mete and bladsmth above less dense than pearlite so a pearlitic spine will again be shorter at room temperature than a martensitic edge and will attempt to compress it, resulting or exacerbating this curvature. But since the martensitic (or even just cooler) edge is stronger/harder than a pearlitic (or hotter) spine, for greater ratios of edge to spine, you could get the opposite on the temperature drop where the edge is strong enough to yield the spine in tension and induce an opposite residual distortion and leave you with a belly in curve at room temperature as noted. Or if the spine eventually transforms to all or mostly martensite despite cooling slower because you are using a high hardenability steel then you could again easily end up with a re-curve type curvature and an edge in residual tension.

To really know in advance of trying it, you would probably need to do the same sort of numerical analysis that Inoue does. But after you have the final result of a trial in your hand, you could measure the curvature, see where the hamon lies, knowing the microstructure and dimensions of the different zones and Youngs modulus, you could get a qualitative feel for what residual stresses you have induced in direction and rough magnitude.

Unrelated, but I thought the most interesting part of that presentation was the effect the clay had on the water quenching, reducing the steam blanketing from film boiling at the highest temperatures thus increasing the initial heat transfer when the material is best able to tolerate and most needs it and then decreasing the final heat transfer rate when you are below the pearlite nose and neither want nor can tolerate the much increased rate of heat transfer in the nucleate boiling regime.

Oops, I see while I was writing bladsmth has dealt with the guts of the last bit, but it is too late here to be bothered editing, so forgive the repetitive parts.
 
are we talking about only cold forging before heat treat, or are we talking about cold work, and work hardening? I disagree on the point that cold working can have no positive impact. Obviously edge packing is a myth nobody disputes that, but Cold working is a completely valid method of hardening metals that is used in industry all the time. Cold working for the reasons mete explained will make steel harder, but I do agree that the results are not as good as a full martensitic transformation, and any cold working benifits will be erased during heat treatment. But there are many alloys that cannot be heat treated, but do respond nicely to work hardening usually by cold rolling. Just a little while ago we had a few threads pertaining to GNiCr40Al4 that displayed significant gains in hardness after cold reduction. Also what about some cold work on steel blades after heat treatment?
 
And here I thought this was supposed to be an intelligent and informed conversation. :p

Thanks guys I learn so much being a fly on the wall when you are all discussing topics like these.
 
Nebulae. I don't think "strain hardening" is the issue. That is a real treatment and has its place. Thinking that it makes metal denser or survives heat treatment is the myth we wish to dispell.
 
I thought the edge packing issue had been successfully debunked? does anybody still think that it is possible?
 
Cold forging, work hardening ,cold work is all the same .When you do it , how much and with what is what makes the difference. Cold working 301 SS is common . We used it in special springs for the military.
Modern steels for vehicles are HT'd in the mill but then are cold formed and welded without further processing.
Cold work adds energy and dislocations and that mean more sights for nucleation of austenite therefore finer grain and higher strength.
 
I thought the edge packing issue had been successfully debunked? does anybody still think that it is possible?
Yes... to both of your questions.

Mete's last sentence is often misunderstood. It is the subsequent heat treat that imparts the refined grain. Before that, it is only strain and dislocations.

That is what I thought Murray was trying to say as well. Apparently, not.
 
Murray states

"I have conducted research that supports the attributes of cold forging in blades, and all highly respected Japanese bladesmiths incorporate the process. Japanese bladesmiths unanimously agree that cold forging enhances cutting performance in blades. "

This is where scientific method excels in testing claims.

So set up some parameters and test your hypothesis.

While so many bladesmiths have a lot to say about it we really just want proof.

Prove it right or prove it wrong
 
Yes... to both of your questions.

Mete's last sentence is often misunderstood. It is the subsequent heat treat that imparts the refined grain. Before that, it is only strain and dislocations.

That is what I thought Murray was trying to say as well. Apparently, not.

If I understand what I have read the process of work hardening steel can lead to grain refinement and subsequent increase in beneficial properties of the steel. The hypothesis of edge packing seems to have come about as a misinterpretation of the grain refinement. Microscopes have been around for a long time and grain size should have been discernable for the last couple of centuries. Even heat treating the steel after work hardening could lead to a finer grain than heat treating without work hardening.
 
I think we are all agreeing on the principle, but looking at it from different directions. The problem comes in things like what mete was saying.
Cold forging causes dislocations, and can lead to finer grain after HT ( nucleation) if there is a single quench from the lower austenitization temps, as is the case in yake-ire.
Where some of us took exception was that it does not make the steel denser.
That a fine grain is a good thing is not in question, I am sure we all agree on that. But, the grain isn't any finer with cold forging than it is with modern metallurgical methods used to refine grain.

In the times when the Japanese were greatly refining ( pun intended) their blade forging, they did not have microscopes, PID controls or thermocouples, metal analysis, or most of the advantages we have today. Yet, they came up with highly specialized techniques by careful testing and recording of the procedures. This lead to a set of procedures that gave the maximum qualities they desired. These methods became the "secrets" of the craft passed on to the generation of smiths over many years of slow learning and meticulous attention to understanding how to read the steel and the forge.

Today, the same effects are accomplished by many smiths by cycling the steel through three cycles prior to the final HT. They use modern alloyed steel with certs, PID controls to get an exact temperature, and engineered quenchants to get a controlled cooling rate. This negates any need to set up the dislocations by cold forging, and avoids the possibility of microcracks or splits starting. If yaki-ire is desired, the steel can be cycled, then clay coated, and quenched from the lowest austenitization temp...... and the grain will be equally fine as it would be if cold forged.

Ed fowler's triple quench does the same thing, as it is a cycling event. Each cycle reduces the grain size and erases the memory of the past event. This gives him a quality blade with fine grain.

I am going to step out of this discussion now, as I think these discussions can quickly get overblown over simple words like denser and memory.
As I told Ed in an email after the last big dust-up, "We all agree on the results, but may have different explanations about how we got there".
 
We could probably wrap up this thread now... everything that can be said about the issue has been presented.
 
Hi, I would like to add also my opinion about this topic. I know that cold forging is now a technique that can give you the desired shape without heating the material, this means reduction of working costs and of polluting emissions. Furthermore, the cold forging process is suitable for a high quality of surface.
 
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