Cold Steel 2020 remakes devalue Discontinued knives & swords - What do you think ?

[Your Name Goes Here]

I would love to hear your opinions; this question is mainly about the Collector value (I'm NOT asking for actual prices - so I hope this question is ok). Will your collection devalue over time as CS remakes long discontinued / rare / vintage items ?

As there are so many issues/things, etc that can devalue a collection over time (alien invasion for one) - I would like to try to keep this discussion based on - All things being equal.

I have been thinking about this issue since CS reintroduced the Magnum Tanto series. And now with the remakes in 2020, it seems a trend is starting.

My thoughts in a nutshell are (I'll admit Mostly Con):

Cons (I understand some will see these as a PRO):

- a once rare / hard to get / discontinued item is now easy to acquire

- a buyer having the choice to buy the New version, may not buy the Original version (which, before the remake, was the only option available to the buyer).

- just thought of another Con. "Newer is better" thinking. A buyer may no longer desire the once sought after Original version as - newer is better.

These 3 issues, in my mind, have the potential to devalue Discontinued items when the discontinued items are remade.

Pro:

- a buyer may now, after buying the New version, want to also own the Original version (the buyer may not have known about the Original version, until the New version was released).

- a slight variation on the above thought. New version is released, buyer does research, finds there is an Original version - buys the Original version instead of the New version.


As CS releases the remakes there are some differences from the Original version VS the New version. This is in no way a comprehensive list in differences or items (just off the top of my head and could be wrong - please let me know and I will correct this list if possible).

Some examples:

Magnum Tanto series.

Original version made in Japan. New version made in Taiwan. From what I have read, both are equal in fit and finish. Original version VG-1 San Mai (yes, that is a "1" for those that don't know). New version VG-10 San Mai (that is a "10"). Original version leather sheath. New version kydex.

Mini Tuff Lite (Plain Edge) Black:

Same model number for each version. Original version made in Taiwan. New version made in Taiwan (?). Original version Aus 8a steel. New version 4034SS steel (very limited research suggests this steel is a down grade from Aus 8a ?).

This remake is going to be confusing out of the box, as currently I don't see any way to tell the New version from the Original version unless you have the Original box (maybe the blade will list the knife steel / and different logo from the Original ?).

Without the Original box, this seems like a for sure devalue if the knife steel is not listed, and/or the logo has not changed.

Not talking big dollars here, but with the current trend, this same example could happen to a high value item (see below listed swords).

Kobun Serrated:

Original version made in Japan. New version made in Taiwan (?). Original version model number 17.1S. (had to look this up - thanks Jlauffer). New version model number 17TS. Same steel.

OSI:

I guess it was discontinued if it is New for 2020. This knife seems to be the exact same as the Original version. Same model number. Same steel. Again, the Original box will be the only difference (especially as the steel is the same). Unless the logo is different.

Black Bear Classic:

Original version made in Taiwan - Aus 8a. And also 400 Series stainless.
Original version also made in Japan - VG-1 San Mai. And also Aus 8a.
Not sure of the years of production for the above knives.
New version made in Taiwan. New version VG-10 San Mai.
Original versions leather and also kydex sheaths. New version kydex.

Jade Lion Dagger:

This knife seems to be the exact same as the Original version. Same model number. Same steel. Again, the Original box will be the only difference. But in this case, the Original boxes are usually just a plain brown box with a small white sticker/label. Will the New version come in a different box ? And there are No steel markings or Logos on the Original version. Will the New version have them ?

Another possible example of a rare knife being devalued as there is, currently to my knowledge, nothing different from the rare discontinued Original version and now this New easily available version.


A Trend for 2021 ? ? ?

Starting to feel the value of your collection going South ? Maybe next year the Arc Angel, sold from the AZ office. Or any other "high value" discontinued CS item.

The list goes on for 2020 - willow leaf (was Discontinued), two handed gim (was Discontinued), double edge katana Emperors series (was Discontinued) - I'm fairly certain there was also a Warrior series double edge (Discontinued - but maybe not in 2021), battle gim (not sure what is different, same model number, I don't think it was discontinued ? or what is new ?), Nodachi (was Discontinued).


Final Thoughts ("Thank God !")

For myself - I always like to have the Original, even if the New version is a light saber in comparison (steel / materials used).

Has anyone tracked the effect on the value of the Magnum Tanto series ?

As mentioned, a trend seems to have started. The New version Magnum Tantos must have sold well as CS is releasing more remakes for 2020. If the 2020 New Versions sale well - then 2021 . . . (it is a business after all).

Don't get me completely wrong. A remake can be a great occurrence for the Collector or just the person buying a one time knife cause its neat. But speaking directly to the devaluation - if the remakes are similar or exact (the worst option to me) - I feel they devalue the Discontinued item.

In closing ("Thank God !" "you shut up" "No, You shut up !")

I would like to see Remakes only if there is a clear distinction from the Original. For example, the blade steel listed on the item - easy to do, not much cost to CS ? Coated / Uncoated blades (what ever is New). Upgraded materials - always cool (more cost but I think people would be willing to pay ?).

You see the upgraded materials A Lot with Buck, Spyderco, Benchmade, etc. (maybe not bringing back the Discontinued items [Hint, Hint] - but the markings and materials being listed, sometimes COA, etc).

Well I hope others will give there opinions - as I said, I would love to know your thoughts.

 

[Man with no name]

I welcome the reintroduction of Japanese made Cold Steel knives. So far I have found them to be well made, high quality blades in every regard. It's a great opportunity for those who may have missed the originals before they went out of production. Or for those that want a "user" while their originals stay mint. And while the new Taiwan made blades are great knives, one thing that they will never be is "Made In Japan"and all that that implies.

The history of the Seki cutlery industry dates back to the 13th century. Samurai had their swords forged there and for good reason. And despite whatever new materials or manufacturing technology that might appear, there will always be an aura or mystique about steel Made In Japan! So no, I don't believe that the newer knives will in any way, shape or form devalue the originals.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

I welcome the reintroduction of Japanese made Cold Steel knives. So far I have found them to be well made, high quality blades in every regard. It's a great opportunity for those who may have missed the originals before they went out of production. Or for those that want a "user" while their originals stay mint. And while the new Taiwan made blades are great knives, one thing that they will never be is "Made In Japan"and all that that implies.

The history of the Seki cutlery industry dates back to the 13th century. Samurai had their swords forged there and for good reason. And despite whatever new materials or manufacturing technology that might appear, there will always be an aura or mystique about steel Made In Japan! So no, I don't believe that the newer knives will in any way, shape or form devalue the originals.

Great insight - and I totally agree - with the Japan made Magnum Tantos. As you mentioned the history, and the Magnum Tantos have a look and feel of the Samurai - so all the mystique is well deserved. I still need to buy one, one of these days ! (The Original XII of course).

Do you have any insights/opinions to the Original knives or swords that are Not made in Japan - such as the Jade Lion Dagger (the New versions seems to be an exact remake of the Original - won't be rare any longer) or the Black Bear Classic which was produced both in Japan and Taiwan ?

 

[hardheart]

As Cold Steel sells new knives to pay their bills and their employees, and new sales to new people place more knives in the hands of more people as the years go on, I can see no reason to be concerned with the value of discontinued models. Any secondary market sale of any of these knives does not make Cold Steel a dime, nor does it pay the laborers that made the knife, nor those that produced the steel or other materials assembled into the knife. And as Cold Stee has a large catalog of relatively high production, it also makes little sense for them to focus on short runs intended only to make more money for third and fourth person to sell the knife, again paying no one further up the chain an additional dime at all. As such, I don't know if it reduces the value of discontinued knives, but I certainly hope it does in order to discourage hoarding and flipping.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

As Cold Steel sells new knives to pay their bills and their employees, and new sales to new people place more knives in the hands of more people as the years go on, I can see no reason to be concerned with the value of discontinued models. Any secondary market sale of any of these knives does not make Cold Steel a dime, nor does it pay the laborers that made the knife, nor those that produced the steel or other materials assembled into the knife. And as Cold Stee has a large catalog of relatively high production, it also makes little sense for them to focus on short runs intended only to make more money for third and fourth person to sell the knife, again paying no one further up the chain an additional dime at all. As such, I don't know if it reduces the value of discontinued knives, but I certainly hope it does in order to discourage hoarding and flipping.

I kind of have to disagree with you about cold steel making money from the secondary market. Just stay with me on this thought - I'm sure a certain percentage of people who buy and or collect cold steel knives - do this because they feel that later on at some point in time they can resale those knives at a profit. For example - buy one to use and buy one (or more) to sale later for profit.

Now if cold steel items Never increased in value - after they were discontinued - I feel that a certain percentage of sales would decrease. I personally wouldn't buy two or three of an item if I thought I couldn't sale the extra in the future for profit to continue my Cold Steel Addiction. And this decrease in sales would directly affect cold steels bottom line and all the people that work for them and so on and so on.

Again, only thinking of the Collector - they buy multiples to make a profit. If discontinued items don't increase in value - then a certain percentage of current cold steel sales and buyers evaporate.

And if CS is going to remake exact copies of discontinued items, what happens to the secondary market mentioned above. For example - a knife that is a few years discontinued, sales for say $300 on the secondary market. An remake is released in 2020, exact in every way as the Original. Street price is $150. Does this not devalue the Original item. You will no longer be able to sale the original discontinued item for $300, as it can be bought - multiple times - for $150 each.

As for "short runs" - other companies seem to make a profit, a big profit I can only assume - as they make short runs all year long every year. It's a business, the companies would not do the short runs if it were not profitable.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[The Mastiff]

Cold Steel knives are much more oriented towards user knives than collectors. Compare that to Randall . Obviously there are exceptions.

If a knife has collector value it will maintain it even if the model is reintroduced. The new model just insures there is another item to add to the collection.

Good to see hardheart posting here again.

Joe

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

Cold Steel knives are much more oriented towards user knives than collectors. Compare that to Randall . Obviously there are exceptions.

If a knife has collector value it will maintain it even if the model is reintroduced. The new model just insures there is another item to add to the collection.

Good to see hardheart posting here again.

Joe

Love all these answers ! Really has given me a lot to think about.

"If a knife has collector value it will maintain it even if the model is reintroduced."

Does this answer presuppose there is some identifiable difference between them ?

What if the Original version and the New reintroduced version are identical - as it seems to be with the 2020 swords and daggers (I'm talking about the discontinued ones I mentioned above). The Originals don't have any steel markings or logos to differentiate them; if the 2020's are the same ?, then what.

For example, I don't think you can find an Original / Discontinued Jade Lion Dagger for sale currently. The value would be high currently. Once the remakes are released - the Original will be the same value as the Remakes (if there is no difference between them). The value would decrease on the Original, would it not ?

Would a discontinued Randall hold it's value if a discontinued model was remade - and the new version and the original version were identical ? (I know nothing about Randall knives).

"The new model just insures there is another item to add to the collection."

Again, I am reading this as presupposing there is some identifiable difference between them. Then yes, if they can be differentiated, I agree to a certain degree, it's just another version / variation to add to the collection. But if there is Not a difference - then the new model dilutes the current existing productions numbers / scarcity.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[jux t]

I think it’s nice to be able to afford new versions of old models. As long as there is an easy enough way to distinguish them apart.

Usually CS marks the country of manufacture, so it should be relatively easy in the examples you related. Especially newer Taiwan models, aren’t most of them labeled as Taiwan made?

It sounds like you have a massive collection of vintage cold steels and are worried about its value.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

I think it’s nice to be able to afford new versions of old models. As long as there is an easy enough way to distinguish them apart.

Usually CS marks the country of manufacture, so it should be relatively easy in the examples you related. Especially newer Taiwan models, aren’t most of them labeled as Taiwan made?

It sounds like you have a massive collection of vintage cold steels and are worried about its value.

I only wish in my dreams every night ! I do collect CS, and I have the Black Bear Classic in San Mai, new in the box. Others I have are not in the high value range, so nothing to worry about there. This is more of a fun discussion and as I originally said, I had been thinking about this issue since the remakes of the Magnum Tantos.

At the time I was going to buy a XII. But then the remakes came out and I wanted to see what would happen to the market. With my occasional checking on sale prices, they seem to me to be coming down in price. Others may disagree. So for me a wait and see - maybe this is the year I buy an Original XII.

Yes, most knives are labeled with country of origin and the newer models with the country of origin and the blade steel. So easy to tell the difference, as you said. My question mainly is, do the remakes devalue even if you can tell the difference between them. Only time will tell ?

But in a few of the examples listed above - there seems to be No difference.

Mainly talking about the 5 swords and 1 dagger that are to, I think, a lot of people, high value items. If you can't tell the difference between the Originals and the New versions, then if you own a lot of these original versions, once these remakes are released, your collection may be about to lose a lot of it's value ! ? ! ?

And is this a worrying trend going forward.

Why pay more for a discontinued XHP steel model if it will be remade in a couple of years. In this example, just a different logo on the blade (this assumes the steel and everything else is the same. And that CS has changed it's logo again).

"I think it’s nice to be able to afford new versions of old models."

This is an example of the devaluation I am mentioning. For the person that wants to buy the Original expensive version - they say - "one day I will buy it". Now a lower price New version comes out. They buy that. Never buying the Original version. But they would have "one day", except for the the New version. A loss of demand for the Original version, leading to a devaluation in price.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[dogstar]

I am glad CS gives a new generation of users a chance to experience classic designs. Good on them!

 

[AF]

Doesn't concern me. I'm glad that CS is re-introducing models.
I don't see modern CS as being collectible. Not really. Not like many of the Seki-made knives of old. Of course, the future is murky but other than some scarcity value like you get with the Talwar, Mini Recon, CTS-XHP, etc. I don't really see the brand as having collectibility.
CS makes awesome user knives. I have a dozen CS folders in my EDC rotation and all of them have been modified to my liking. So their resale value is even lower now!

 

[kreole]

As a collector, you need to recognize and consider the company doesn't always discontinue a model forever. In other words, onus is on the collector, not the company, to not lose money if that's the goal.

 

[jlauffer]

I definitely think that the values of the original Japanese San Mai Tantos/Magnum Tantos came down a bit once the Taiwan versions were released, but they are still pretty healthy. Carbon V Trail Masters and Laredos are also still highly valued even though there are SK5 and O1 versions.

If they were to re-release models that are exactly the same as the previous version (including country of manufacture), and they cost less than the going rate for the old version, then of course it will devalue the old version. But so far there has always been a difference...blade steel, handle material, country of manufacture, etc, that helps keep the old stuff still valuable.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

I am glad CS gives a new generation of users a chance to experience classic designs. Good on them!

I agree, to an extent. The remakes Must have some easily identifiable difference from the Original version. But if there is Not a difference (as in the example of the 2020 swords ?) - then the remake dilutes the current existing productions numbers / scarcity / value in my opinion. And as I have said, I still feel, even with an easily identifiable difference, there is the potential for devaluation.

Thank you for your reply and if you voted !

 

[Mitchell Knives]

Maybe it's just me, but the Taiwan models actually seem to be a bit nicer than the Japanese models I've seen.

These are inexpensive factory knives, so I don't really care about the secondary market.

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

Doesn't concern me. I'm glad that CS is re-introducing models.
I don't see modern CS as being collectible. Not really. Not like many of the Seki-made knives of old. Of course, the future is murky but other than some scarcity value like you get with the Talwar, Mini Recon, CTS-XHP, etc. I don't really see the brand as having collectibility.
CS makes awesome user knives. I have a dozen CS folders in my EDC rotation and all of them have been modified to my liking. So their resale value is even lower now!

I do see modern and vintage CS as collectible. Here is how I see it:

If you buy a lot of the same brand - you collect.

If you buy a lot of the same brand, and multiples of the same item within that brand, with the intention of selling the extras for profit - you are a Collector.

I quick look on the bay shows approximately 30 items that have sold for over $400 each, in the last 3 months. That is just on the bay and within the last 3 months. What of all the other sites and private sales. Plus, that is only the items which sold for over $400. I hope that some of these people (Collectors ?) made a profit.

To me, there is profit to be made in new and vintage cold steel items. If you can buy it and resale for a profit - it is a collectible. I guess it may be what is considered "High Value". I remember thinking a $50 knife was expensive when I first started collecting ! (Laughs at himself)

Thank you for your reply and if you voted !

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

As a collector, you need to recognize and consider the company doesn't always discontinue a model forever. In other words, onus is on the collector, not the company, to not lose money if that's the goal.

You are correct, a company can do what ever it wants. And if customers stop buying from that company - that is also their choice. I say this because I feel a certain percentage of buyers may think twice about buying CS swords (especially Discontinued high value swords) if the exact copy will be remade years later.

When I first started collecting CS, part of the mystique / coolness of the company / product was that a percentage of their products were only made for 3 years or 5 years - then Discontinued (forever, I at least thought). That added a value / collectibility to me. I have not seen (or noticed) cold still issue remakes in the short time I have been collecting. Until the Magnum Tantos and now the multiple 2020 items.

And if I have not mentioned, my concern also is, I want CS to succeed as a company. Love their product, and attitude, and everyone I have met at the company are just great people. I just feel the remakes have the potential to hurt the company sales (although most likely in a minor way) and their Collector customers.

Thank you for your reply and if you voted !

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

I definitely think that the values of the original Japanese San Mai Tantos/Magnum Tantos came down a bit once the Taiwan versions were released, but they are still pretty healthy. Carbon V Trail Masters and Laredos are also still highly valued even though there are SK5 and O1 versions.

If they were to re-release models that are exactly the same as the previous version (including country of manufacture), and they cost less than the going rate for the old version, then of course it will devalue the old version. But so far there has always been a difference...blade steel, handle material, country of manufacture, etc, that helps keep the old stuff still valuable.

I also agree the price has come down. It seemed like you could Not buy a new in box Original Japan version XII for under $500. Now can be had for below $400. And when the Japan versions do sale, it takes longer to sale. But before the release of the Taiwan versions, they would sale almost immediately.

Good point with the Trail Masters and Laredos (Also, all are clearly identifiable as different). But I would say a slight difference in my definition of - Discontinued.

Discontinued - stop making the product. The product is Not made the following year in a different steel (as with the Trail Masters and Laredos). This is just a steel change (and/or handle) in the same product. And I believe multiple versions of the knife, with different steel, were available for retail sale at the same time. So not a 'true' Discontinued item in my mind.

Some of these swords have been truly discontinued for Years. I've only seen the willow leaf (was Discontinued) for sale one time - and the person paid A Lot. The two handed gim (was Discontinued) only for sale on the bay, one time that I have seen. Now, if there is no difference in these swords - I'm sure those people may be disappointed a little bit with CS.

Maybe CS will give an answer here as how the 2020 swords can be easily identifiable from the Original versions ?

Thank you for your reply and if you voted !

 

[Your Name Goes Here]

Maybe it's just me, but the Taiwan models actually seem to be a bit nicer than the Japanese models I've seen.

These are inexpensive factory knives, so I don't really care about the secondary market.

Interesting, I had not read/heard that the Taiwan version is a bit nicer (of course, your opinion. NOT saying it is wrong).

"These are inexpensive factory knives, so I don't really care about the secondary market."

One person's inexpensive is another's out of reach price point. I know when I buy a home, I only buy homes I collect that are over $100 M. Otherwise they are inexpensive shacks : )

Thank you for your reply and if you voted !

 

[JOE NOWICKI]

Hello my first post on CS forum CS knives were the first knives I collected. I never thought of them as collector grade knives until I bought the three Espada's in 2015. The lg., med., and sm., the small has been discontinued and liked it so much I have 2. I have about a dozen CS knives in a case and never thought that the LG. Espada was the size it is. It is huge for a folder and I could never carry it. I really don't know what it is good for just "shock value" I shifted to Buck knives where there are real "old knives" and people who will pay the price to own one. Actually Buck has too many collectible knives and nobody can own all. I had quite a collection going and thought what is the future of my collection. I started to sell off my very collectible knives. I sold 2 knives and took my wife to Vegas, since she put up with my sickness I decided she needed to benefit from my sale. I still collect but sold off almost all of special knifes because I felt there were still other knives like mine out there. I am now focused on one of a kind knives and take pride in knowing that I am the only one to own these singular knives.