Cold Steel Video....???

[STR]

Personally of all those knives pictured there I think I would prefer a Camp Tramp. For the slightly higher price point than the Cold Steel it just seems to me to be the better buy and the better knife over the Recon Scout or the TrailMaster. Not that I don't like the CS knives because I do but I think the Camp Tramp has a better grip for long term use and better steel so when you compare apples to apples it seems to win out in my mind.
STR

 

[DngrRuss1]

They will not guarantee it, and you void your warrenty if you try to find out. As with all blade tests, it is pretty much impossible to judge the performance without a reference blade, you have no way of being able to judge the performance. On a simple wood chop for example, if you cut through the wood fast and the knife stays sharp does it mean the knife is ground well and the steel high quality or just that the wood is really soft and the user skilled, there is no way to tell.

-Cliff

Same song and dance, eh Cliff?

I (and other forumites) have repeatedly taken you to task on this one, and you still maintain your innacurate position. Oh well, at least you're tenacious. Wrong, but tenacious.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I (and other forumites) have repeatedly ...

Chosen to ignore facts such as :

-lots of other makers will guarantee thier knives perform as they describe

So you can not argue that it isn't possible for Cold Steel to do the same, because others have, and continue to do so for quite some time.

-lots other people, including makers, believe that if you promote a knife being able to do something, it should be able to do it

-this isn't something that people apply just to Cold Steel, the same arguement would (and has been) made if anyone makes performance claims about their knives

Plus your arguement is inconsistent and illogical as you use statements like :

It is too dangerous for people to try to replicate cold steels tests which include :

-chopping a 2x4
-cutting 1" rope
-digging in wood

Yet at the same time it is perfectly fine for people to use Cold Steel's products to :

-hunt wild boar with spears
-fell trees
-self-defence

-Cliff

 

[DngrRuss1]

Then you must feel the same way about any product that would use the same warning for their products. Again, the SUV commercial and the professional driver- closed course- do not attempt. illustration applies.

I think that your position might hold more water if other manufacturers who do very explicit or extreme advertising like the CS dvd were to give the customer free licence to go nuts.

If you were a manufacturer of a product that has inherent dangers during its use, you might think twice before opening the flood gates for every yahoo in the world to misuse your product, hurt themselves or someone else.

I recently found out a little inside history about CS and their testing and the warnings at the beginning of the dvd. In the early days of the company, during one test, a staff member- who was doing everything right and safe, still cut off a thumb. Fortunately for him, it was re-attached succsessfuly and he ended up ok. But, you can imagine LT and CS looking at testing as something that is necessary, but can have unexpected results. Why should he NOT make warnings and disclaimers in the dvd?

There have been other incidents- like the support wire holding the weights for a lock test snapping and the weights dropping to the ground, etc.- that are potential dangers from the tests. If someone were to hurt themselves while testing CS products because LT and CS said that it was perfectly ok- the company would be sued into oblivion.

Before you accuse a company of not being willing to back up performance claims when they are willing to do extreme things with said product, you should look at the entire picture and then think about all sides.

 

[STR]

Chopping, cutting rope and doing some other tasks associated with 'normal use' are covered under their warranty. Cold Steel has honored warranty repair or replacement on at least one Recon Scout that I know of. I am sure there are other examples of this. The disclaimers are for their own protection.

In the world we live in today when people sue for spilling hot coffee on themselves who can hold CS at fault for covering their own ass? I can't. Besides that their products give the users, (which are many by the way), very little problem or need for warranty repairs. Their products simply hold up to anything most people are going to dish out and in the event that one does have to be put to the test you know from watching the video that the lock has a high probability of being as strong as they demonstrated in thier tests, or the blade or whatever other part or whole of the makeup of what you own. It doesn't mean you need to duplicate the tests just to see if they lied does it? I mean a measure of trust goes with each purchase and over time that accumulates from past experience. The product speaks for itself in most cases and most any one that hangs out here knows a good product when they see it and hold it in their hands.

I could site numerous other company warranty quotes from the paper work here in my safe with my new knives from BenchMade, Spyderco, Kershaw, Buck, Gerber, and any other competitors of CS that say almost exactly the same things as those in the Cold Steel warranty. Why CS should have to be the ones to say 'if you break our knives during other than normal use we'll cover it' is a bit of a stretch in my mind. First off it would open them to undue liable to do that and any attorney will tell them that.

Just because they put out a video to show how much their knives take before defeating or breaking or just to show how bad ass they are doesn't give everyone that watches it a license to duplicate their tests with their knives or anyone elses. It is just to show the people what they are getting for their money. The real tell on this whole topic is that no one has challenged CS by proving their products are just as strong, just as reliable or just as tough. No one. Lots of talk but wheres the beef?

STR

 

[alhersch]

Thanks for all the replies, I didn't mean to start a long drawn out argument/discussion... I just though the video was funny how they put there knives through all that, and that they put a video together like that and not many if any companies have done this. That along would give them a head start on competition. I will buy CS knives in the future, but not because of anything I saw on the video... Only because I like the look of a few of there knives.

Alan

 

[freddy1]

hi 500jefferyDK, i noted that you have got the Rambo knife in your collection (i dream of it in my young age).
How does it perform compare to the other knives you have on the picture?

 

[Will P.]

Thanks for all the replies, I didn't mean to start a long drawn out argument/discussion... I just though the video was funny how they put there knives through all that, and that they put a video together like that and not many if any companies have done this. That along would give them a head start on competition. I will buy CS knives in the future, but not because of anything I saw on the video... Only because I like the look of a few of there knives.

Alan

CS is a marketing company - they make videos and promote knives, but they don't actualy make them.

CS's best knives, their fixed blades, are made by Camillus in the US. Camillus is a good company.

 

[Shann]

I tracked down a CS Carbon V Peacekeeper for my BIL for Xmas. Thats a nice knife for the price, I thought. Nice size, although I'm not sure I like the kraton handles, good balance. I've always read that double edged knives are hard to make sharp because of the dual grinds and don't "slash" well because of the lack of belly. This one does pretty well on both grounds, easily slicing paper both on the front cut and the back cut. Nothing special maybe, but good.

 

[500jefferyDK]

hi 500jefferyDK, i noted that you have got the Rambo knife in your collection (i dream of it in my young age).
How does it perform compare to the other knives you have on the picture?

Freddy - buddy

The Jimmy Lile "Rambo The Mission" is one tough made knife even with the hollow handle. Best thing is that the knife is flat grind and preforms excelent. The knife is very light for its size and handels very well in balance.

Here is a couple of pictures of the beauty.

Get one on ebay and sell it after the release of the Rambo 4 movie that is on its way. You will have a chance of owning one and a chance to make money. LOL

Cheers,

André

 

[500jefferyDK]

CS is a marketing company - they make videos and promote knives, but they don't actualy make them.

CS's best knives, their fixed blades, are made by Camillus in the US. Camillus is a good company.

I also own a Camillus OVB Bowie designed by Jerry Fisk and the Old carbon steel Trailmaster is a better knife.

Cheers,

André

 

[rowdy27]

Could someone send me a copy of this DVD? I'd return it or trade a Moose Hunting DVD for it. Cheers Dan

 

[freddy1]

500jefferyDK, thank for your short review !:thumbup:
This knife is now too "tactical" for my actual taste
Was'nt the handle dangerous, with those screw driver heads?
Look like a wrong "good-idea", that could easily hurt the user...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Then you must feel the same way about any product that would use the same warning for their products. Again, the SUV commercial and the professional driver- closed course- do not attempt. illustration applies.

No it does not because as I noted the last time you brought this up, the same people do not advocate more dangerous activies. Cold Steel does exactly this and thus the arguement is invalid.

I think that your position might hold more water if other manufacturers who do very explicit or extreme advertising like the CS dvd were to give the customer free licence to go nuts.

As noted, every time you bring this up, there are lots of people that when they use performance information to promote their knives will guarantee they will perform to the standards described. Makers have made these comments in the very threads you describe and you choose to ignore them.

If someone were to hurt themselves while testing CS products because LT and CS said that it was perfectly ok- the company would be sued into oblivion.

But it is perfectly fine for Cold Steel to advocate using their Boar Spears to hunt, use their bowies to chop wood, throw the tomahawks around and any other of the dozens of highly dangerous activities that Cold Steel will readily say it is perfectly fine for you to do with thier knives. They of course also promote their knives as self-defence tools. You really want to argue these activities are less dangerous than cutting a piece of hemp rope?

.... in the event that one does have to be put to the test you know from watching the video that the lock has a high probability of being as strong as they demonstrated in thier tests, or the blade or whatever other part or whole of the makeup of what you own.

P.T. Barnum would be proud. Someone selling a product says something and thus it has to be true, even when they specifically say right after it that any attempt by the customer to verify the outrageous claims is not only not covered under the warrenty, it compeletly voids said warrenty.

Here is an offer to you a knifemaker :

I have a new forumulation of AO belts, they are designed to offer superior wear resistance and cutting ability. You can lean on them as hard as you want and run them as fast as you want and it doesn't reduce the lifetime. However, any attempt by you to actually verify that the belts to actually perform in this manner will void the warrenty.

How many would you like to order?

It doesn't mean you need to duplicate the tests just to see if they lied does it?

Yes it does because not everyone tells the truth, lots of people are quite willing to vastly overhype their product. Do you really believe that the Cold Steel Trailmaster is as good as Thompson says compared to production and custom bowies. Do you really believe the nonsense they say about AUS-8 being the finest stainless steel in the cutlery industry, about how AISI 420 is a great steel when "sub zero quenched". If you read the various statements by makers/manufactures you will note there is a lot of contradictory information, it obviously can not all be true.

I could site numerous other company warranty quotes from the paper work here in my safe with my new knives from BenchMade, Spyderco, Kershaw, Buck, Gerber, and any other competitors of CS that say almost exactly the same things as those in the Cold Steel warranty.

It is how it is promoted that it relevant. Cold Steel specifically uses the video to sell their knives in direct arguements as to their superior quality as in - this is how great are products are (insert extreme claim of superiority over other brands) you can see this for yourself in our video. Find similar arguements by those other companies and similar refusal to support the performance claims.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

I think that your position might hold more water if other manufacturers who do very explicit or extreme advertising like the CS dvd were to give the customer free licence to go nuts.

I get that license with my RD-9 knives from Ranger Knives. I get that license with my Ratweiler, Howling Rat, and Battle Rat from Swamp Rat knives. I get that license with my SF Natural Outlaw from Busse Combat Knives. I get 90-100% of that license with my 882SBTG from Buck Knives.

I don't get that license with my Vaquero Grande and El Hombres from Cold Steel, but they're still great at what they do.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Bill Martino used to advocate similar with his knives, test them out before you use them. Lots of people still do, some even shoot video's of various cutting tests performed with khukuris and swords and post them in the HI forum. Bill was always of course one to warn about the dangerous of khukuri use, as even drawing the knife can be problematic to those unfamiliar.

I have talked to a lot of makers about such work, not only will they often encourage it but they will often talk about exactly how to do it, as most tests of cutting performance and sharpness are very dependent on method and sharpening, not just having the blade sharp, but chosing the right grit finish and how you draw the blade during the cut.

Can you hurt yourself, of course. But it isn't like this is the only way to cut yourself with a knife, or even that it is the most dangerous use. About the most dangerous thing you could do utility wise with a large knife/axe is to fell trees, this kills people every year who know exactly what they are doing.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

Cliff I'm not going to waste any more time after this on you with this discussion again because you are being ridiculous. If Cold Steel had a reputation for making crap and they were spouting off all those claims it would be well known in the very small business of knives and cutlery. Guess what? They don't make much in the way of crap and it shows. So your saying that people lie may be true but the statements pretty much hold water with the products in use by the ELU. (end line user)I do not hear a lot of ELU complaints about Cold Steel products but in fact just the opposite. Just because someone says something does not mean it 'has to be true' but any educated person with a little common sense, past experience with the products or the company and their own knowledge of how these things are made can put two and two together to determine if the statements have a high or low probability of being true.

For example: In the Cold Steel Special Projects catalog is a picture on the very first page of a Cold Steel Ultimate Hunter hanging in a vice with 150 pounds tied through the lanyard as the knife hangs free holding that weight on the opened knife in the locked position. I can tell from using my knife of the same model that the lock is strong and that there is a high probability that my knife certainly would perform the same exact feat without having to duplicate it just to satisfy my curiousity. Whether it is going to void the warranty or not is irrelevant because the test isn't necessary for the ELU. It isn't a normal use of the knife but only you seem to be the one that doesn't quite understand that my friend.

You seem to mix up using the knife normally with abusing the knife. The warranty doesn't say that if you use the knife to cut with you void the warranty, like your AO belt scenario. It says in plain English, the warranty covers the knife when they are used as they were intended to be used. This is no different than any other company out there. Your only problem with Cold Steel seems to be that they won't let you beat the hell out of their products so you can claim warranty repairs on them since they made a video to show how well made they think their products are. People like you are the very reason they are so careful to explain the warranty the way they do in the first place because you just don't get it!

Cold Steel Trailmaster is as good as Thompson says compared to production and custom bowies.

They are very good knives for the money. Anyone that has handled one knows that so yes I do think he believes it when he says it. I have stated I prefer a Camp Tramp. He is entitled to his belief what is your point?

Do you really believe the nonsense they say about AUS-8 being the finest stainless steel in the cutlery industry,

I noticed that for quite a while Cold Steel was using this steel and very few others were. Then all the sudden it became very popular and now many other companies use it. The term 'finest' has a very subjective view. Lynn's definition is obviously not the same as yours and mine. He states opinion there and he is every bit as entitled to his opinion as you are yours so again what is the point?. It has nothing to do with the strength or warranty claims we are talking about.

AUS8 is a fine tough steel though and I have several knives that have performed very well out of it.





STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Whether it is going to void the warranty or not is irrelevant because the test isn't necessary for the ELU.

Now consider :

You seem to mix up using the knife normally with abusing the knife.

No, not at all :

[FONT=arial, helvetica]"The Carbon V®Trail Master¨ is, without a doubt, the most knife for the money ever built. In terms of sharpness, edge holding, strength and sheer cutting power, it will outperform any factory made knife we know of and 99% of all hand forged knives as well. Unlike our competitors, we can prove that the claims we have made for the Trail Master® are true. You can see the evidence for yourself in our video entitled MORE PROOF. "

[/FONT]
They specifically use the video to support the claims of "sharpness, edge holding, strength and cutting power", obviously all elements very much relevant to the ELU and thus directly contradicting your arguement proposed in the above.

The warranty doesn't say that if you use the knife to cut with you void the warranty, like your AO belt scenario.

Yes it does, they use the video just as I did in the above and just like that they say you can not attempt to verify it and that any attempt to do so voids the warrenty. It doesn't note specific parts of the video, it covers the whole thing and calls it gross abuse of the knife.

[the extreme claims made by CS in regards to steels, knives, etc.]

It has nothing to do with the strength or warranty claims we are talking about.

Yes it does obviously, it goes directly towards how much faith you would have in anything they say. Read the Trailmaster blurb I quoted in the above, do you agree, do you find it even reasonable. User preference is one thing, if it was all things like feel in hand, ergononimcs, visual appeal, etc., it is one thing, but strength, edge holding, sharpness, etc. are all easily measured, these are not subjective and based on opinion.

As for them not making "crap", there is a big jump between that and better than all production and 99% of custom knives. It isn't the performance, it is how they are promoted which is being addressed. I like the Trailmaster as a heavy working bowie, it isn't exactly what I would want, but I would still be happy to have it for such use. However this doesn't mean it matches the promotion, nor does the fact that it doesn't mean it is crap.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I give up on you Cliff. Move on please and believe what you want to.

STR

 

[Sword and Shield]

I get that license with my RD-9 knives from Ranger Knives. I get that license with my Ratweiler, Howling Rat, and Battle Rat from Swamp Rat knives. I get that license with my SF Natural Outlaw from Busse Combat Knives. I get 90-100% of that license with my 882SBTG from Buck Knives.

I don't get that license with my Vaquero Grande and El Hombres from Cold Steel, but they're still great at what they do.

You also get that with Bark River. Best warranty I've ever seen, unless badgers are involved.