Cold temperatures induce blade chipping?

One thing to keep in mind is that the chart above is most likely made with a Charpy V notch test. Cutlery steel toughness is measured typically using the C notch or un-notched samples. A value of 100 J in a V notch sample is much tougher than 100 in a C or un-notched sample. This is still a SWAG, but the Titanic steel at 25 C in a C notch test would probably be close or slightly tougher than many modern cutlery steels with cutting tool appropriate heat treatments. FWIW, modern bridge girder plate used in VDOT work has to meet 15 ft-lbs. at -40 deg. F., just as a comparison.
Click to expand...

I've read that samples of Titanic ( and her sisters) steel showed inclusions, poor grain structure and some signs of over heating. It makes sense as it was a huge project for it's time and put a strain on regular supply sources. When you are buying steel by the tens of thousands of tons especially if something is new to a foundry, or pushes the limits of the foundries ability to make deadlines causes problems.

I was reading about the problems the Navy had sourcing very thick class A and B armor castings when building capital ships restarted in 1937-39 after 20 years of not making them. They had to improvise and change things, moving to Class B for the NC/Washington battleships. Within a couple of years they were then able to produce higher quality plate than the stuff in the 20's on the Colorado class. IIRC, they stayed with Class B on all Capital ships and used class A on the cruisers as they found there were reasons it worked out better. Even so, castings for different battleships in the same class sometimes differed from each other due to the foundries differing abilities. Some could make solid 19 inch castings. Others could only do 17 inch and had to laminate the rest on which doesn't provide the same level of invulnerability.

As far as A36 steels it's not likely to show up on the larger or more sophisticated ships or subs. HY80, HY 100, etc. are better equipped to handle the demands involved.
 
outdooredge said:
When I chipped and rolled my Gransfors axe it was around -3 but it was morning and night temperature was around -16 so trees were still almost frozen.
Click to expand...

The question is, is this a result of the wood being frozen or the axe being too cold?

I guess a good test would be to leave the axe out and in bring some wood in from inside...
 
The logging shows in northern Alberta shut down around -40 due to equipment damage concerns, such as oil lines and fittings. Occasionally metal components subjected to severe stress, like backhoe buckets, fail more often in severe cold. The old-time hand loggers, using double bits made from hard steel welded into softer iron, would warm the bits with candles before they started work. Once they began felling, friction would keep the axes warm. But I've never encountered any problem with knives chipping when used for cutting, even at -40. Possibly some steels,if used for batonning or chopping, might chip more readily in deep cold.
 
Cynic2701 said:
Just how often do you baton (or do other rough things) with a knife that is at 100 degrees Celsius?
Click to expand...

100 degrees Celsius is boiling, so no, I don't used my knives in that kind of heat. But that's not what I said, and I don't know how you inferred that from my comment. The chart is a little difficult to read at fine resolution, but it looks as though the steel mentioned has an ability to resist impact at something a little north of 100 joules at room temperature (72 F or 22 C). At 32 F (0 C), its ability to resist impact falls well below 50 joules.

Yes, this is A36 and who knows what the heat treat is, but my point was that it's hard for me to believe that a knife blade would lose most of its ability to resist impact when temperatures fall from room temperature to 32 F. I have no evidence, but intuitively, that drop in performance strikes me as incorrect by a lot.

This is an interesting thread, but we don't really have any definitive data to tell us how much of a problem knife blades face when used in cold temperatures.
 
Alberta Ed said:
The logging shows in northern Alberta shut down around -40 due to equipment damage concerns, such as oil lines and fittings. Occasionally metal components subjected to severe stress, like backhoe buckets, fail more often in severe cold. The old-time hand loggers, using double bits made from hard steel welded into softer iron, would warm the bits with candles before they started work. Once they began felling, friction would keep the axes warm. But I've never encountered any problem with knives chipping when used for cutting, even at -40. Possibly some steels,if used for batonning or chopping, might chip more readily in deep cold.
Click to expand...
Interesting Ed. I think that many of us here got pretty heavily in firearms, fishing, and general outdoor persuits. I find -15 to be more or less standard cold prairie winter in Sask -25 getting to be damn cold winter weather, then there is that rare -40 stuff. Experienced now and then here but more common further north. I spent a summer and winter on the north shore of lake Athabasca. I shot a lot of ptarmigan up there but when it was -40 and the diesel trucks were left idling all night, or they couldn't be started worth a damn, I lasted half an hour once hunting in that temp. After that experience it felt dangerously stupid for me to be chasing birds on that cold. Freakin lighter have to be arm pitted and even then work half assed.
 
Frisky said:
Thanks for the responses. Seems like there's no consensus though. I told the guy cryo treatments might be around minus 300 F. and I assume smoothes out the structure of steel. I'm not sure. I have noticed cutting into frozen materials is difficult and I suppose could chip a hard blade. Anyway, it is interesting. Here in MN, people ride their bicycles all winter and I've never seen or heard of frame or fork damage on steel-framed bikes, in spite of temps going well below zero. I have had both glass and plastic components break on my car in hot/cold extremes.

Joe
Click to expand...
 
dogstar said:
This is correct. This is why this trend of increasing rockwell hardness in blade steel seems a bit silly.
Click to expand...
I want about all of my knives sixty HRC and well above thank you very much.
If I were to ever whack away with a knife bellow zero I suppose I could use a lower hardness blade but I never do. Though I do spend a fair amount of time in the teens and below zero here in Colorado I'm in the big city and don't have the occasion to need to use my knife like a froe.
 
Frisky said:
Here in MN, people ride their bicycles all winter and I've never seen or heard of frame or fork damage on steel-framed bikes, in spite of temps going well below zero.
Click to expand...
That's me; down to -15° F. No prob BUT there isn't much on there that is seriously hard other than the bearing surfaces (some of / most of those are over 30 years old. Last for ever with proper adjustment and a little lube every decade or so ;):)) . . . still . . . there are no knife edges . . .
 
My guess is that any cold which a "human" can survive exposure to is not going to noticably affect your knife.

If you get the steel down to liquid nitrogen or liquid oxygen temperatures, sure, it would probably cause trouble were you able to survive exposure to those temeratures (Highly unlikely. Just breathing would instantly freeze the lungs) and use it at those temeratures.

During WW II on the Eastern Front the infantryman's rifle barrels were not cracking/shattering or blowing up during the severe Russian winters when the temps were -40 to -70 F, during a battle/skirmish, nor were the artillery and tank barrels.
I would think that if it got cold enough to affect your knife, it would affect firearms and cannon even more when they were fired.
 
Torm said:
I don't have a lot of experience using my knives in extreme cold but wouldn't keeping the knife close to the body when not in use keep the steel from getting too cold and minimize the risk of chipping? I know that's what folks do with camera batteries to minimize the power loss in them in extremely cold temperatures.
Click to expand...
The old-time loggers working in very cold conditions used to warm their double-bits with candles before starting to chop. The axes then were hand made and featured very hard steel bits set into softer iron for the haft -- I remember seeing one found in northern Minnesota.
 
I've seen traditional knives used by Inuit that are hundreds of years old and are still ok. I think it's all in how it's used though. Cutting into a warm animal is different then trying to split a log in half.
 
ScooterG said:
6 year old thread. Maybe Gaston was resurrected?
Click to expand...

As a long term member of the forum who actually participated in the original thread, I can assure you that your lack of positive discussion contribution brings no knowledge or experience to the table. One would hope that the majority of participants in this forum have life responsibilities and move in and out of sites like this, as time and interest permits. After a summer of metal detecting and picking up gold or silver rings in lakes, I am now ready to transition back to more outdoor knife use. The Maxpedition day pack beside me with my Ti Emberlit stove, canteen cup, and a fresh new boiler is waiting for the next commitment free day off. It is quite often amusing , and often embarrassing, to go back to old posts that I participated in, to see my lack of knife knowledge/and the progress that I've made since then. I'm speaking as a person having outdoor knife and axe use as just another of many interests to pursue, which at times wait in turn. So I ask you, please, try not to just jump into a thread with a sarcastic non contributing jab. I did it here for a long time myself. It just ends up spreading negativity and bumming folks out. Thank you.
 
upnorth said:
As a long term member of the forum who actually participated in the original thread, I can assure you that your lack of positive discussion contribution brings no knowledge or experience to the table. One would hope that the majority of participants in this forum have life responsibilities and move in and out of sites like this, as time and interest permits. After a summer of metal detecting and picking up gold or silver rings in lakes, I am now ready to transition back to more outdoor knife use. The Maxpedition day pack beside me with my Ti Emberlit stove, canteen cup, and a fresh new boiler is waiting for the next commitment free day off. It is quite often amusing , and often embarrassing, to go back to old posts that I participated in, to see my lack of knife knowledge/and the progress that I've made since then. I'm speaking as a person having outdoor knife and axe use as just another of many interests to pursue, which at times wait in turn. So I ask you, please, try not to just jump into a thread with a sarcastic non contributing jab. I did it here for a long time myself. It just ends up spreading negativity and bumming folks out. Thank you.
Click to expand...
Y'know what bumms folks out? Reading someone's belabored harping on another's brief and almost unnoticeable joke NOT EVEN DIRECTED AT YOU. That bums people out WAY more than a comment like the one you are criticizing. So way to spread the negativity, and here I am following suit because of it. :oops: But if you delete your comment, I promise to delete mine :)
 
RevDevil said:
Metals can and do experience an increase in brittleness when exposed to prolonged cold temperatures.
Click to expand...

We should also consider that cold weather has a definite impact on the materials we are cutting. Frozen wood can be very hard.

n2s
 
I think ice is the biggest risk. It isn’t so much that the steel gets more brittle as it is that you might be chopping, batonning or carving something like frozen wood.

I winter camp and ice fish a lot. I have never had an issue with a knife even at temps below zero.

This is a BK14 chipping ice out of the mouth of a Nalgene bottle. I think it was about 11 degrees Fahrenheit.

HDNJqCK.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top