cold weather steel?

Jared Stenoien said:
Getting too off topic, pm sent.
Click to expand...

got it...:thumbup:

Now back to topic. As for Mission knives, I had a few MPK's that I used extensively for several years and the Rc on these I think is about 47, but the held an edge more along the lines of a 440A blade at Rc of 57 or so. Not great but not bad.
 
That MetalScience is BS. I didn't go beyond the first quote . Metals have Metallic bonds not molecular bonds ,there are no molecules in metals only atoms crystals and grains !!! ...As for grain refinement lets take 52100 as an example .As we quench we first hit the Ms temperature [480 F ] where martensite starts to form. At 235 F we hit the Mf temperature which completes the transition to martensite .Therefore at that temperature martensite grains are completely formed and cannot be changed ,refined or otherwise !!! In practice the reaction is never complete .There will always be some retained austenite, the amount depending on alloy and heat treating variables.Reducing the temperature further will reduce but not completely transform that RA. The lower you cool it the less RA you will have....Sorry Cobalt but those are the facts though I've seen lots of BS especially from companies that sell cryo !
 
adfprpusn:
In respomse to your inquiry-

I work on the North Slope of Alaska.
Temps range from 0 to -60 in the winter.
My knife gets really cold.

I carry a U.S. Gov. issued mini prybar in addition to my knife. You might try one of these.
When I need to pry something, I use this tool. I can keep it ‘warm’ inside my pocket.
I never need to impact anything with my knife, {it’s a folder}, so I can’t help you there, except to say, ‘wear eye protection!’
Not knowing your situation, I don't know what to suggest for chopping[?], except to figure out another option or risk breaking your blade.

As expected, the usual suspects are touting their favorite brands on this thread. Some of these brands are really good in warmer weather.

Please try to ignore one brand over another, because, at really low temps, they ALL BREAK! {You want "destruction tests"? I'll show you destruction tests! Gimme your knife...} LOL!!

And yes, mete is right, cryogenically treating metal does not change anything!

Atoms stop moving at Absolute Zero, {-273 C} At Minus 40, they are moving, {relatively}, slow! Things break, even rubber.

My 2 cents…..
 
mete said:
That MetalScience is BS. I didn't go beyond the first quote . Metals have Metallic bonds not molecular bonds ,there are no molecules in metals only atoms crystals and grains !!! ...As for grain refinement lets take 52100 as an example .As we quench we first hit the Ms temperature [480 F ] where martensite starts to form. At 235 F we hit the Mf temperature which completes the transition to martensite .Therefore at that temperature martensite grains are completely formed and cannot be changed ,refined or otherwise !!! In practice the reaction is never complete .There will always be some retained austenite, the amount depending on alloy and heat treating variables.Reducing the temperature further will reduce but not completely transform that RA. The lower you cool it the less RA you will have....Sorry Cobalt but those are the facts though I've seen lots of BS especially from companies that sell cryo !
Click to expand...


You might also have a look at Buck knives.

From their website:

Will my Buck knife and sheath survive in extremely cold climates?
We have tested our products in -48º C (-55º F) temperatures without significant embrittlement of the blade, handle, or sheath materials. If you experience temperatures in the minus range, try to keep your knife dry and free of ice, and be sure to keep the blade lubed.
Click to expand...

http://www.buckknives.com/faqs.php#products
 
hardheart said:
I got the quote directly from the knivesby link YOU posted. I don't need you calling me a liar.
Click to expand...

no response needed to a moronic outburst like this. :thumbdn: even if it was a misunderstanding.

I think you need to grow some thicker skin little child:jerkit:

as you are about to turn the direction of this thread into a fight over something which you have no more proof than I.
 
Cryogenic Tempering - Documented Gains For All Types Of Metals
Comparison chart between -120 degree F shallow quenching vs. -310 degree F deep cryogenic tempering



http://www.onecryo.com/manufact.htm



I think industry pretty well excepts that cryo treatment is not mumbo jumbo smoke and mirrors. Something happens which according to the scientific community improves performance.


This is just one link there is a lot out there.
 
Cobalt said:
no response needed to a moronic outburst like this. :thumbdn: even if it was a misunderstanding.

I think you need to grow some thicker skin little child:jerkit:

as you are about to turn the direction of this thread into a fight over something which you have no more proof than I.
Click to expand...


Would you buy a used knife from this man?:D LOL!
 
Bors, I am a retired metallurgist and I'm on a number of knife forums trying to educate people ,especially makers, about metallurgy....."industry pretty well accepts ...cryo" That's not true there are many who have found it did not do what was claimed. I've been through these discussions many times and it's always the same -many claims by cryo companies ,many users who found it didn't work at all , some found little benefit, and no real scientific evidence to explain just what happens .We had a metallurgist on another forum who works for a cryo company and a member of the ASM Cryo committee.We gave him every opportunity to provide information and he couldn't do it ! Yes cryo reduces retained austenite but that's all we know at this time ... Go to the Makers section and search 'cryo' I won't repeat myself here.
 
And your experience using knives in extremely cold temperatures was what?

That was what the original thread was asking opinions about.
He didn't ask, "Whats the best knife in the whole wide world?"

We all know the answer to that. :rolleyes:

Now go away.
 
mete said:
Bors, I am a retired metallurgist and I'm on a number of knife forums trying to educate people ,especially makers, about metallurgy.....
Click to expand...

"industry pretty well accepts ...cryo" That's not true there are many who have found it did not do what was claimed.
Click to expand...

Is it that it did not work or that it just did not work for their application?


I've been through these discussions many times and it's always the same -many claims by cryo companies ,many users who found it didn't work at all , some found little benefit, and no real scientific evidence to explain just what happens.
Click to expand...

How many centuries did it take us to understand heat teating. Yes we new that if you heated steel to a certian temp and then quenched it it got very hard and if you heated it at a lower temp you tempered it which made it not so brittle. But could we "explain" what happened and why.......no.


We had a metallurgist on another forum who works for a cryo company and a member of the ASM Cryo committee.We gave him every opportunity to provide information and he couldn't do it ! Yes cryo reduces retained austenite but that's all we know at this time ... Go to the Makers section and search 'cryo' I won't repeat myself here.
Click to expand...


It sounds like we are at the same stage as the early makers of centuries ago. That is we know something is happening but since we don't understand it we can't scientifically explain it.
 
bearcut said:
And your experience using knives in extremely cold temperatures was what?

That was what the original thread was asking opinions about.
He didn't ask, "Whats the best knife in the whole wide world?"

We all know the answer to that. :rolleyes:

Now go away.
Click to expand...

:jerkit: troll :jerkit:

I do apologize to adfprpusn for this thread going south do to my comment which ignited the remainder, along with trolls waiting to take shots.
 
Cobalt said:
no response needed to a moronic outburst like this. :thumbdn: even if it was a misunderstanding.

I think you need to grow some thicker skin little child:jerkit:

as you are about to turn the direction of this thread into a fight over something which you have no more proof than I.
Click to expand...

Quote:
Bearcuts response:
"Would you buy a used knife from this man? LOL!"



You guys can dish it out with a backhoe, but can't take a teaspoon full.

Then you go hijack the thread and quote me out of context.

I only have one thing to say to you :p
 
I have spent the last twenty years in Nunavut and the NWT, in Canada. The carbon steel springs on the Skidoos, Yamahas and Arctic Cat's that I have owned have continued to act like springs down to -50F. Some of the plastics get pretty brittle though!

As for a knife.. I have had a bit more impact edge damage on stainless then on carbon when processing caribou ribs at -40. The more thinly ground the edge and the harder and "better" the steel the worse it seems to get. Despite this the only gross damage I have ever experienced was when a student broke the whole tip off of a cheap 420 drop point when chipping ice. This knife wasn't hard enough to hold a good edge and the damage surprised me. May have been a flaw.

My ice chisel is carbon with a fairly steep bevel. It's not heat treated as hard as most knives...more in the hardware store axe category. Ice wont hurt it but if you chip through to gravel you are going to need to spend time on the stones!

All great axes are carbon steel and I haven't had massive failure with one even the Gransfors Bruks which is hard for an axe and I have used at -40F.

I like the Scandinavian laminated knife blades. They seem pretty tough and aren't too expensive. The mild steel sides should lend a fair bit of toughness to the thin hard core.

Hardly Scientific but there you have my observations. That and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee.
 
North61 said:
I have spent the last twenty years in Nunavut and the NWT, in Canada. The carbon steel springs on the Skidoos, Yamahas and Arctic Cat's that I have owned have continued to act like springs down to -50F. Some of the plastics get pretty brittle though!

As for a knife.. I have had a bit more impact edge damage on stainless then on carbon when processing caribou ribs at -40. The more thinly ground the edge and the harder and "better" the steel the worse it seems to get. Despite this the only gross damage I have ever experienced was when a student broke the whole tip off of a cheap 420 drop point when chipping ice. This knife wasn't hard enough to hold a good edge and the damage surprised me. May have been a flaw.

My ice chisel is carbon with a fairly steep bevel. It's not heat treated as hard as most knives...more in the hardware store axe category. Ice wont hurt it but if you chip through to gravel you are going to need to spend time on the stones!

All great axes are carbon steel and I haven't had massive failure with one even the Gransfors Bruks which is hard for an axe and I have used at -40F.

I like the Scandinavian laminated knife blades. They seem pretty tough and aren't too expensive. The mild steel sides should lend a fair bit of toughness to the thin hard core.

Hardly Scientific but there you have my observations. That and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee.
Click to expand...

any carbon blade with a lower Rc should work well. If you want cheap just go with the Cold Steel (cough) Bushman. It has a low Rc, soft low carbon steel and it is dirt cheap.
 
Now we're getting somewhere!

Yup, snowmachine springs, crampons, etc. They don't break all the time.

The thin hard edge of a knife fractures a lot easier in super cold temps, for obvious reasons. Prying and high impact on a blade, which was the concern of the thread starter, is a lot different than the stress of a compressing spring though. In fact, that thick spring is probably developing it's own heat as it cycles so maybe it's not a fair comparison.

Axes too, have a thicker edge so they aren't quite as susceptible to damadge in the cold. To me, that's kinda apples and oranges.

I own one of the toughest knives made and I don't expect it to be bulletproof in extremely low temps.

You can find that liitle prybar I mentioned at:

http://www.endtimesreport.com/survival_shop.html#Multi-Purpose

I cord wrapped mine.

Hope this helps.
 
The big question here is what do you consider cold weather. The coldest I have ever worked and used a knife and axe in is 10 to 15 below and I really cannot see myself wanting to work in anything lower than that. The knife I used as well as the axe held up just fine for the hour that I was out there. I have used the same items many times in single digit temps with no problem. As for anything less than these temps, I would be more worried about me than the knife.

Cliff Stamp routinly tests knives in extreme cold weather and some make it some don't. check out his tests, he has most popular brands in there.


http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/reviews.html



mete said:
That MetalScience is BS. I didn't go beyond the first
quote . Metals have Metallic bonds not molecular bonds ,there are no molecules in metals only atoms crystals and grains !!! ...As for grain refinement lets take 52100 as an example .As we quench we first hit the Ms temperature [480 F ] where martensite starts to form. At 235 F we hit the Mf temperature which completes the transition to martensite .Therefore at that temperature martensite grains are completely formed and cannot be changed ,refined or otherwise !!! In practice the reaction is never complete .There will always be some retained austenite, the amount depending on alloy and heat treating variables.Reducing the temperature further will reduce but not completely transform that RA. The lower you cool it the less RA you will have....Sorry Cobalt but those are the facts though I've seen lots of BS especially from companies that sell cryo !
Click to expand...


mete, I am going to quote this in my other thread to avoid going off topic on this one again. thanks as I did not see this earlier.
 
Cliff doesn't post anymore? He knows a lot about steel, was eager to help total strangers, and was great at explaining things to us mortals. What an asset he has been. I hope he is well.

As much as I like the idea of a stainless steel. I may try to make my own knife out of an old leaf spring or pry bar. I will look into these brand recommendations first. Thanks youall.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top