Collaboration Thoughts

From a knife dealer point of view I would have to say that if you are going to make a high end type of knife, go with the high end materials.

If you want to sell a Tom Mayo design then you will have to use Tom Mayo materials, just like with the Striders. That goes for any well known maker/designer. Those models will have limited appeal anyway and the high end market won't tolerate corner cutting.

MOST knife buyers and users don't have a clue who Tom Mayo, Alan Elishewitz, Mick Strider and all the others are so they don't care who designed the thing. If they like the style and design and can afford it they'll buy it regardless of what it's made of. If any one of those factors aren't there, they won't, and it will not matter what materials were used.

A few years ago Benchmade tried to get into the CRK market by knocking off the Sebenza. They used the same titanium for the handles but went with a cheaper steel for the blade and used cost cutting procedures for building it. I sold both. Sebenzas outsold the Benchmade by a factor of 10 to 1 at almost three times the price. It failed in the market because it wasn't up to the standards of the real thing even though, in it's own right, it was a well made knife.

Examples in the Buck line are the Striders and the Alpha Hunters. BG42 Striders sold really well for me. I sold over 20 of the large Tantos at full retail. The ATS34 version, however, barely moves and has to be discounted.

Alpha Hunters are the hottest thing in the Buck line right now and I have a hard time keeping the wood handle ATS34 models in stock. Sales on the rubber handle 420HC versions, however, are actually pretty sluggish even though they avearge $20.00/knife less. At least for me, the high end models are selling pretty well while the cheaper ones aren't. You might check sales figures for other dealers and see what they're doing.

If you want to use cheaper materials then put them in a different model, price it accordingly, and forget about a "high end" version. With the high end knives the converse is true. Keep it high end and forget about the "economy" version.

Trying to make a sow's ear look like a silk purse will fool a few folks but the fact of the matter is people who recognize the knife for what it is won't settle for the cheaper materials.

Think about it. Effectively, what you would be doing is knocking off your own product.
 
High end for me too :)

However as long as it retains the Mayo flavour (Framelock, oval hole opening and plenty of holes in the handles), then I'd buy one regardless. eg. Steel handles and ATS34 blade

Can we have 2 sizes too?
 
For a Mayo collaboration, I’d definitely go as high end as possible. The more knowledgeable people, who have heard of Tom Mayo, will be looking at that $150.00 - $200.00 MSRP range. You’d be hitting the same people who bought the BG-42 Buck Strider, or who go for the PCKS Buck 110s. They demand the high end materials and craftsmanship. Your excellent BG-42 would be a good place to start. I wouldn’t go any lower on the steel. I instantly lost interest in the Buck Striders when the steel suddenly changed, and never managed to get a BG-42 version. Your BG-42 is a strong selling point. I’d personally rate the BG-42 on my PCKS Buck 110 as perhaps better in quality than the BG-42 on my Sebenza. That is saying a lot. Your partnership with Paul Bos has proven itself in your steel.

With that said, the standard consumer arena is much more dismal. This is mostly because “average Joe” doesn’t know much about knives. If you’d asked me about steel a number of years ago, I would have said that there is stainless and carbon steel. I actually thought that all stainless steels were exactly alike, as were all carbon steels. I just didn’t know there were differences. If you want the average consumer to pay more, you’ll have to effectively train them at the retail level. And I don’t think that information on a blister pack will be enough. They need something to take home and read, or to have a person to teach them. Maybe a cheapo videotape would help. I don’t know.

There is success in both the lower and higher ends. The area in between is much more muddy and unpredictable, IMHO.

If I could get a well-made Mayo frame lock with your BG-42 steel, and pay an online retailer less than $150.00, I’d be a very happy guy.
 
How about high end fit and finish, and carbon steel?
If that does not sell, then tool steel?
Just my preference.
john
 
Oh yah. Take advantage of the "black hole" in knives. There are lots of production frame locks in the small blade size, but there's virtually nothing very good in the approximately 3 1/2" blade size. It's just a big black hole that no manufacturer has adequately filled. MANY people want a larger, more hand filling Camillus EDC, but it just isn't there.
 
It will help if we know just what it is we are dealing with. Are we talking frame or liner lock? Are we talking one size or will various sizes be made available? What is the intended use of the knife? EDC, defensive, hunter, etc.?
Personally, I would like to see something with a 2 3/4" - 3" drop point blade (ATS-34/154CM/BG-42). Frame lock, titanium if possible but skeletonized steel if not. Adjustable pivot is a must....and please, make all the screws the same size.
Buzzbait brought up a very good point. There isn't much out there in the 3 1/2" or larger range. Two sizes, large (3 1/2") and small (3") should cover all the bases.
One other thing. Blade/edge geometry. Make it the same as the 110/112.

Paul
 
I want to thank all of you for all this great feedback.

The first knife will be hi-end as it is already in the works and this thread will play into future models.

thanks again for the feedback.

cj
 
Hrm.

Having read this, let me bring up another question.

What do people mean by "high" vs "low" end?

To me, "low" end is $20-$50 STREET price, and "high" end is $60-$160 STREET price. The Buck Strider falls nicely right in middle of the "high-end" category.

My Microtech LCC, for example, at $175, is a reasonable price. I wouldn't mind a little lower, obviously, but for what you get (S30V, micarta, bolsters, impeccable machining, very smooth action), it's been great and a value.

For $200, we're starting to get into the stratosphere for production-grade knives.

I'd hazard that you might even see a loss in the "knife knut" class buyer. Probably for every doubling of price above $100, you'd see a 4x or 8x loss in sales.

I know I couldn't afford a $200 production-grade.

Hell, for that price, I might as well start looking at the Ralph/Wilson combat...

-Jon
 
Mr. Buck (Sir Buck? :) )

Good to hear that!

I'm glad to see y'all are looking into the collaboration bit. It seems to be quite popular and hopefully financially successful for both the designer as well as the production company.

I bought the BS Mini for myself, and the Koji Hara for my stepfather-in-law, and they've been great selections.

I can't wait to see a Mayo colloboration.

Thanks again.

Oh, and... most importantly:

When about will this be unveiled to us?

-Jon
 
Biogon you have the low end about right but the higher numbers you mention are actually more in the mid-range and the upper level of that range is closer to 200.00.

High end is in the $200.00 - $400.00 range for production knives, ("street price") and the reality is there is a net gain in "knife knut" buyers in that category. Low end sales have fallen off during the current crunch. Mid range has dipped a little bit too but there are still buyers for the good stuff.

I know it doesn't seem logical but the knife market is a bit strange when it comes to that. Real aficianados want the good stuff and are willing to pay for it.
 
There should be a pretty big market for a competitor knife for the Chris Reeves framelocks.

Since CRK does a very good job of controlling sales, I think any knife in the $150 - $225 range should do a pretty good job of competing.

I am looking forward to how Lone Wolf Knives performs when they finally release their Brian Tighe design. Street price should be about $200. This will have S-30V steel, and is a liner lock, not a frame lock.

If the Tighe design knife was a frame lock, I would buy it instantly. Same with a Mayo collaboration. Any street price below $200 should attract a decent number of buyers, particularly those that would otherwise buy a Sebenza. Would these sell at a hunting shop? Seems unlikely - but then again - who knows? Like Dennis Wright mentioned, the BG-42 Strider Solutions have kept a high value in the secondary market, but people are having a hard time selling the ATS-34 models.
 
biogon - I don't know about everybody else, but I was talking MSRP. The MSRP on a current Buck Strider is $190.00. This equates to something like $130.00 street price. This is the price range that I'd personally like to see a Mayo collaboration fall in to. I’m talking something in the Sere2000 and Benchmade 710HS arena, which many people but into.

Then again, I could be convinced to pay $200.00 street price. The fit and finish would have to be VERY good though. I’m talking perfectly centered blade and a rounded spine at this price level.
 
Buzzbait,

DOH! Ehhh.... yes. I just saw numbers and kind of went "Hrm.... If I'm looking at $350-400 for a lower-end custom...I'm not sure if I want to spend 2/3rds to 1/2 that for what amounts to a very-well-done production knife.

That's why I emphasized "street" pricing (which really should be online pricing ;) )

Yeah, for $190 MSRP to end up around $120-140 online price is a perfect range for such a beastie. :)

I suppose on a little bit of thought I might be persuaded to do $200 for a excellently executed Mayo collaboration, given that his customs are $600+... I have been lusting after that TNT for a while now.... :D

-Jon
 
Okay, I'm going to go squarely against the crowd -- I think it's a terrible business mistake to go high-end-only with collaborations. To clarify:

- If you're doing a one-off collaboration with a high-end maker, you should be doing a high-end collaboration, especially if it's this maker's first-ever collaboration. E.g., your first Strider collaboration, Mayo collaboration. This is a no brainer to me -- go high-end.

- But you should be working to develop an ongoing relationship with at least one or two custom makers, a design per year or so. Some of those collaborations should definitely be mid-range and low-end. You are leaving way too much business on the table if you don't plumb the mid-range and low-end markets with your "crown jewel" designers. You'll make more money in these ranges than at the high-end anyway. Not to hit you over the head with it, but the way Benchmade works with makers like Pardue is exactly the right model, IMO.

Joe
 
Joe, you're not necessarily against the whole crowd. That's pretty much the same point I was trying to make. You just said it better.

As I said in my first post:
"If you want to use cheaper materials then put them in a different model, price it accordingly, and forget about a "high end" version. With the high end knives the converse is true. Keep it high end and forget about the "economy" version."

I still believe it is a mistake to make a high end model and then follow it with an cheaper version of the same thing. It's like making your own knockoffs.

OTOH, there are a lot of good designers out there who could benefit from the exposure they would get with a consumer line of knives with their name next to a major manufacturers on the product. Just make that line with it's own distinctive characteristics and features. It should be able stand, and sell, on it's own merits, not as a cheaper version of another model.
 
Those who don't appreciate the quality materials probably won't appreciate the maker and there's plenty of great choices for them in the line-up. The collaboration knives are something special and it might be best to make it as special in construction as it is in design.
I forgot to note that many, many people do appreciate quality. If you net it all out, it's probably a better business decision to go the quality route as there's already enough cheapies out there. Might as well really differentiate your offering.
 
Anklepocket, that's true....to a point. A well known, respected manufacturer has to build quality into everything they produce or they won't last long.

That being said, however, there's nothing wrong with producing a line of product that is within reach of the average consumer's purchasing capability or budget as long as it is made to the best level within the parameters of the materials and processes being used. Obviously, going to the area of substandard materials ot allowing shoddy workmanship would be one way to lower costs but, with today's technology, that isn't necessary to produce affordable products that still maintain a good quality to cost ratio. The problem is to get past the perception in the mind of the customer that they are buying an inferior product simply because they are paying a cheaper price.

While it's true that the average knife buyer doesn't know who most of the custom makers are and can't tell 420-J2 from BG-42 they do have a pretty good idea of what they like in a knife. It has to feel good in the hand, look good and be easy to sharpen. There are lots of other considerations too but, if those three conditions aren't met, it won't matter whose name is on the blade, what it's made of or what the thing is capable of doing. It won't sell.

A good example of that is the early REKAT Pioneer model. As performers these things are as good as a pocket knife in that price range can get. Good steel, properly heat treated; strong, reliable lock; efficient blade designs; nice size; great edge holding; smooth action (the early handmade ones) and a solid feel.....and plain as a sheet of typing paper. They didn't sell. Why? Because they didn't catch the eye. They were a good value but they had no style and style is what sells a product.

My point here is that if a collaboration is going to work it has to be because the knife is appealing to the market based on it's styling and the reputation of the manufacturer. The general public will buy it for those reasons not the name of the designer who worked with the manufacturer. The designer will benefit down the road when the knife lives up to the manufacturer's reputation and the model becomes known by the designer's name, such as the Buck-Strider or Benchmade-Pardue or the Spyderco-Terzuola, etc.

The primary selling point of any product is the manufacturer. All else is secondary. It's the manufacturer's reputation on the line, not the designer's.
 
And I'll say it a little more frankly ... while there are some excellent choices (for some reason, many of the best IMO live in some obscurity) in Buck's lineup, I also think Buck could use an infusion of custom creativity throughout the lineup. Overall I think Buck could use some help in competing with, say, CRKT and even Kershaw (never thought I'd be saying that, they were beyond pathetic 6 years ago) at the lower end, or Benchmade's mid-range. What strategy did those companies employ? Ah, CRKT build their business on collaborations. Kershaw, which as I said had an almost unspeakably bad line, now has a rather appealing low- and mid-range line through ... collaborations. Benchmade's mid-range line is the result of their always-strong in-house design, plus ... collaborations!

Not that I think any company necessarily needs to mimic others, but in this case, I think it'd be a good idea to adopt some of the more-successful business tactics to help re-energize. Add that to Buck's incredible brand, and you have the makings for increased market presence.

Joe
 
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