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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Collector - maker profit sharing alliance
- Thread starter Joss
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2003
- Messages
- 1,235
I buy custom knives because I like them.
When I pick up a knife I see a piece of handcrafted, functional art, and a reminder that people can be involved and engaged in what they do rather than be spectators (ref: RM Pirsig).
I do not see an asset.
I will not see a huge return on my knife collection ...... infact my philiosphy is that long after I have forgotten the pain of how much it cost, I will be confronted every day with the pride and joy of ownership.
Of course as I develop my collection its nice to be able to rotate with smaller amounts of additional money so I am selective in what I buy.......... but as a hobby its not critical.
I am confronted with cynicism every day, and I wander that path often if truth be told, but in some aspects of my life I like to leave it behind, and one of those areas is my hobbies. Oscar Wilde sums it up well - "A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".
I personally would not want to introduce such a formal monetary arrangement into relationships more akin to friendship than anything else. In my patronage and promotion of this fine craft I consider myself a supporter of knife makers everywhere.
Stephen
When I pick up a knife I see a piece of handcrafted, functional art, and a reminder that people can be involved and engaged in what they do rather than be spectators (ref: RM Pirsig).
I do not see an asset.
I will not see a huge return on my knife collection ...... infact my philiosphy is that long after I have forgotten the pain of how much it cost, I will be confronted every day with the pride and joy of ownership.
Of course as I develop my collection its nice to be able to rotate with smaller amounts of additional money so I am selective in what I buy.......... but as a hobby its not critical.
I am confronted with cynicism every day, and I wander that path often if truth be told, but in some aspects of my life I like to leave it behind, and one of those areas is my hobbies. Oscar Wilde sums it up well - "A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".
I personally would not want to introduce such a formal monetary arrangement into relationships more akin to friendship than anything else. In my patronage and promotion of this fine craft I consider myself a supporter of knife makers everywhere.
Stephen
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Joss,
Excellent point. THe Vanguard Knives offered by, well you know. Have very good investment potential. Specifically the ones done by Walter Brend, George Herron and a couple by RJ Martin.
WWG
Excellent point. THe Vanguard Knives offered by, well you know. Have very good investment potential. Specifically the ones done by Walter Brend, George Herron and a couple by RJ Martin.
WWG
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Joss,
Let me know what you think about a couple of these scenarios.
1) The maker seeing their knives selling for 3 times as much in the aftermarket. Raises the price from $800 to $1000 to compensate for the sale at the lottery.
While at the same time the price on an ordered knife stays the same. This allows those patient collectors the opportunity to get a very sought after knife for retail price.
The $200 premium added on by the maker will do a few things.
1) It will help ease the "pain" of those who have been waiting for in some cases 7 years for a knife, that is being sold to someone who may have waited as little as 10 minutes to get the same knife.
2) It will help the maker's bottom line as the $200 premium can go towards paying show expenses.
3) It will void any feeling of giving the maker a tip.
Second secenario:
As you pointed out before, those participating in an arbitrage and gain a substantial profit in a very short period of time (here is your part) would be subject to have to pay a 25% captial gains tax on that profit. Again, there goes the tip.
At the same time if you did claim the the captial gain, any money you gave (above the cost) would have to then be put on a 1099 and mailed to the maker so they could pay income tax on. So much for the tip.
3rd Scenario:
You pay the maker cash for the knife. Few if any will claim this as income. Consequently you have already tipped them. As they are going to save at least 28% (or whatever their tax bracket is) as well they won't have to pay FICA (another 12%) or any state or local taxes. So by paying cash you could have already given the maker a 40% or better tip without either party knowing it.
OK, the first scenario is probably the best all around. I was just having fun with 2 and 3
WWG
Let me know what you think about a couple of these scenarios.
1) The maker seeing their knives selling for 3 times as much in the aftermarket. Raises the price from $800 to $1000 to compensate for the sale at the lottery.
While at the same time the price on an ordered knife stays the same. This allows those patient collectors the opportunity to get a very sought after knife for retail price.
The $200 premium added on by the maker will do a few things.
1) It will help ease the "pain" of those who have been waiting for in some cases 7 years for a knife, that is being sold to someone who may have waited as little as 10 minutes to get the same knife.
2) It will help the maker's bottom line as the $200 premium can go towards paying show expenses.
3) It will void any feeling of giving the maker a tip.
Second secenario:
As you pointed out before, those participating in an arbitrage and gain a substantial profit in a very short period of time (here is your part) would be subject to have to pay a 25% captial gains tax on that profit. Again, there goes the tip.
At the same time if you did claim the the captial gain, any money you gave (above the cost) would have to then be put on a 1099 and mailed to the maker so they could pay income tax on. So much for the tip.
3rd Scenario:
You pay the maker cash for the knife. Few if any will claim this as income. Consequently you have already tipped them. As they are going to save at least 28% (or whatever their tax bracket is) as well they won't have to pay FICA (another 12%) or any state or local taxes. So by paying cash you could have already given the maker a 40% or better tip without either party knowing it.
OK, the first scenario is probably the best all around. I was just having fun with 2 and 3
WWG
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
In my mind this is basically a subsidy. As far as I am concerned, when I purchase a knife I should be paying what the maker thinks is a fair price for that knife. I am willing to take the chance that the value of the knife will drop, but if it does happen to go up, then in my opinion that money is mine. I'm taking the risk, I am going to enjoy the rewards. If this makes me seem mercenary, then so be it.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
- Messages
- 104
This is an interesting concept, but one that I don't think that I could encourage. While I have spent many years as a collector, the knives I purchased were not thought of as an investment. They were purchased because I liked them. I have not tried to profit from their sale. That being said, I would not be one that would be paying a maker under this scenario. I am a maker, so I might possibly be on the receiving end. Even so, the last thing I would expect would be a customer of mine, purveyor or not, being expected to return to me any percentage of any profit that they made by the sale of one of my knives. If a customer bought a knife for an investment or resale, they are the ones taking the risk that the value will increase or be higher than they paid for the knife. I have never known a maker to guarantee that the knives they make will go up in value. It would not bother me one bit if someone purchased a knife from me at a show and then turned around to the person behind him and sold the knife for a nice profit. We try to put a fair price on our knives, are satisfied with the return when it sells, and if someone can make a buck or two by reselling it, more power to them. Maybe they will buy another.
Charlie Mathews
First Twin
Twin Blades
www.twinxblades.com
Charlie Mathews
First Twin
Twin Blades
www.twinxblades.com
G3
Via con dios
- Joined
- May 23, 2004
- Messages
- 2,781
Stephen F said:
I understand where Joss is coming from but I agree with Stephen here for this reason. This type of situation would destroy the "personality" of this hobby. One of the things that draws me to collecting knives isn't just the usual fondness for them, but also the direct input/output that can be learned from developing friendships and relationships with other makers and collectors alike. If the hobby becomes to engaged in making money, the personality of it will fail. Soon we'll hear os shady dealings and other "corruptions" as time goes on and loopholes are found, etc, etc, etc.
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2001
- Messages
- 816
Joss,
From a makers stand point, it is a noble idea. However, if I sell a knife to customer x for $500, and he sells it to customer y for $800, I would rather he spend another $500+ with me on another knife, than have a share of the profit.
This fits into my pricing strategy, and I certainly don't expect everyone else to price their knives as I do. That's part of what makes it work. I know how long it takes to make my knives, and I know what I need to make per day to keep the lights on and everyone fed. Add in material costs and market values ( I.E. some knives have a higher profit margin driven by the market), and the price is pretty easy to set.
Factors such as demand for my work, especially certain styles, lead time and secondary market sales have an effect as well, but not to a large degree.
Profit sharing might work for a group, but I couldn't see it sustained without some organization. Great food for thought though
From a makers stand point, it is a noble idea. However, if I sell a knife to customer x for $500, and he sells it to customer y for $800, I would rather he spend another $500+ with me on another knife, than have a share of the profit.
This fits into my pricing strategy, and I certainly don't expect everyone else to price their knives as I do. That's part of what makes it work. I know how long it takes to make my knives, and I know what I need to make per day to keep the lights on and everyone fed. Add in material costs and market values ( I.E. some knives have a higher profit margin driven by the market), and the price is pretty easy to set.
Factors such as demand for my work, especially certain styles, lead time and secondary market sales have an effect as well, but not to a large degree.
Profit sharing might work for a group, but I couldn't see it sustained without some organization. Great food for thought though