College Students Defenseless

I attend the University of California Riverside, and have always carried a knife ever since my first day there. According to the CA State Penal Code, folders are pretty much ok on a UC campus.



I feel that students should be able to exercise the right to carry a folder for protection and utility. This is especially considering the occasional rape incident that occurs on my campus (both men and women have been targetted by male suspects).



So hopefully, the laws won't change so I won't be forced to leave my trusty BM Stryker at home.
 
Rules? Rules be dammed. If i have to slice and dice someone for my own personal saftey on campus then that is the way it has to be.

If campus police were escorting every wtuden everywhere then security would not b a problem. They cannot so i will continue to break the rules.

If you need to use the knives in self defense on campus and arein trouble forit from camups administration then threatan to go to the press f they give you any grief. The last thing they want to see is their camous portrayed as a place where people are victemised, crime is rampant and blood runs in the hallways.
 
I go to the University of Florida...pretty big school. I think the police run into the same problems as at Ohio State and other large colleges...there's simply not enough of a police force to worry about folders when you've got so much other stuff going on that poses a serious threat to people. Besides, the rules on knives and other small (not firearms) weapons are pretty vague.

On campus, crime really isn't that big a deal. The most serious threats are against women, and these are taken extremely seriously. I've seen this happen a couple of times. Otherwise, I haven't really felt the campus police too much. If you keep a low profile, they won't bother you.

I normally carry an original Spyderco Endura. I get the same reaction as many others - people take the clip on this knife to be a pager. My friends know it's my knife, but I do nothing to advertise that I have the knife, and nobody bothers me about it.



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JP Bullivant
 
I go(well in the fall, just finished the semister) to Brandeis University, outside Boston. Our rules used to state "no illegal weapons" but they were recently chaned to "no weapons", although they aloow the SCA to have fighting and fencing practice on campus, and one of those guys could do more with a rattan pole that anyone with a folding knife! I used to carry a BM Stryker, but needed money and sold it. I've carried all types of blades besides that, everything from a CS Mini-pal on my keychain, to my Perkins Seraph(daily carry), to a Swedish 4" fixed blade.
I've never had any problems with the cops, and I spend alot of time working in the theater above the police station.
Aaron
ps people have come to rely on me for a sharp knife when needed...odd, they see the need for a knife, but I can't convince them to buy one from me
smile.gif


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aaronm@cs.brandeis.edu
I like my women like I like my knives: strong, sharp, well-formed and pattern-welded!
 
Hey DC Potts, I'm short and fat, too, but I can run like the Dickens when I have to, and intend to give any "BG" something else to occupy his mind while I beat feet. That said, I don't care for the "slice & dice" attitudes some have expressed here; I'm purely for "hit and run," and that only if every avenue of avoidance has been exhausted.

On my campus, weapons are a big no-no, and "weapons" includes just about everything. One of the sacrifices of a college life is that you must hand some of your safety over to the campus security, and thank goodness ours are pretty good. Also, I'm not female, and that makes me safe from most of the usual campus "trouble" (a great injustice, but the truth).

I live off campus, but when I go in, I leave my Civilian at home. I carry a more utilitarian piece, like my AFCK or Police. If they have a problem with that, I know the MA laws and I'm not violating them by carrying such a tool. I'm a good student, older than most, don't drink or use any less socially acceptable narcotics, and I can see no good reason why they should hassle me. To date, they haven't.

I actually feel safe on my campus, but if this proved an illusion I would at least have something. Preparation is important, but I worry about anyone who's walking around an institution of higher learning with their hand in their pocket and their nerves all wired. When you step off campus, that's another story...but again, avoidance is always better than the best physical defense.

I recently gave a friend an ATS-34 EZ-Out. I think they're great little utility knives, and carried one of the crappy-steel ones for years as a beater. I try very hard to encourage him not to think of it as a weapon, though - as folks have said, it's ill-suited for this. If I wanted him to be armed, I'd have given him a Merlin.

I don't know about all of this. I think that a campus should be the last place you think about defense, though I realize that some aren't so ideal, especially if you're a woman. I am also worried whenever defense *begins* with carrying a weapon. I think avoidance techniques are primary, and mindset and mental preparation are very important. A weapon should be the last piece of the puzzle, and you should drill and drill in its deployment and use.

That's my usual $0.12 again...

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Easily accessible, small and VERY sharp is mo betta that large, dull, or unsafe in handle shape or lock stgrength. Another opinion. Also IMHO cut, cut, cut and run is better than cut & run.
sal
 
college is in my opinion a place where it is good to be a bit warry of what is going on.

look at it, you have the entire freshmen class or near all of them far away from home, do not know the area or who is supposed to be on campus. they are busy with school and free to go nuts for the first time in their lives.

many of the girls do not know a thing about self defence and still think guns and knives are "Ickky" and wont carry them. preaditors know this and like to prey on them.

then we all know college students like to have good radios in their rooms and cars which are ripe for theft as are ohter things like laptops and cellular phones.

college is a criminals dream come true. victems to rob and assault who are unfamiliar with the area, dont know people on local law enforcement and who if anything goes wrong go to incompetent campus security which is more intrested in a coverup than crime solving.

Dam, now even i think i need a gun for school!
 
Gee, this is one instance where California comes off well. At the University of California you have no problems carrying any size folder concealed or otherwise. No laws or school regs to hinder. Who would have thought...
 
"Also IMHO cut, cut, cut and run is better than cut & run."

Hmmm...that brings up a question I've been thinking about a lot lately; at what point does "defense" become "attack" in a violent encounter started by someone else? What is realistically appropriate force and what is appropriate force in the eyes of a jury? And should your inevitable day in court (should you defend yourself) ever play a part in the strategy you choose for defense? Or does this seriously impede the primary goal - survival?

I know that I'm throwing the thread a curve, here, but I'd like to hear from those "in the know" (and anyone else with something reasonable to say).

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Titan,

Where did you get that picture of the Outdoor Edge Wedges? I was just looking at their web site and they only have the smaller Wedge. Of course, I like the BIGGER one better!

TIA.

Dave.
 
I just graduated from my college, and there was never any mention about knives being illegal. In fact, a lot of people do carry knives, from Enduras to SAKs. I carry a small Ascent, and the local cops said that'd be okay. As for the oringinal person posting this, you should be glad you don't have a daughter in school. My little sister's going to school in New York, and I've ben trying to get her into self-defense. As for when self-defense turns into unnecessary and excessive force, if you're a martial artist and you kick someone's ass into submission (even if they're bigger and armed!) you could get busted for that. If you cut and run, make sure no one sees you! If you get made, you're screwed. On the other hand, if three guys gang up on you and kill one of them, or maim one of them, that's okay. Personally, I just walk away, and if people talk smack and want to start something, I'll consider it if I can't get away from them. Again, to the original person posting this, why not encourage your son to get into martial arts if he isn't already? I've practiced several styles, and have found American Kenpo, Jeet Kune Do, Aikido (I know, it sounds dumb, but some of their stuff really works!), Jujutsu (Brazillian and Japanese), Muay Thai, and Kali and escrima. Personally, the Muay Thai, JKD, and escrima knife/stick training is the best. Moreover, the knife and stick training translates directly into empty hand techniques, so, armed or not, your son WILL be a bad ass. Of course, when the mugger's got a gun...knock on wood for that. Maybe Titan will agree with me on the efficiency of martial arts. My knife really is the last ditch thing, the first option is always run. Your ego will heal, your punctured lung may not. I agree though, it IS a pain in the ass that your son can't even carry his Gerber around.
 
Corduroy,

I myself define self-defense as the minimum amount of force necessary needed to end an encounter. This system escalates as needed. empty handed against empty handed (i.e. drunks looking to cause trouble) knife or ASP against knife or club. gun and prayer against gun.

Once you have incapacitated the attacker to the point where they are no longer a threat, or are running away, anything else is assault. Is it easy to break a few ribs and kick them while they're down, or to chase them down and beat them? Yes, but that's where self-control should come into play. Any MA worth anything should teach this to its students. While vigilantism or revenge may seem called for in such a situation, punishment is the job of the state.

However, I don't think anyone is saying (out loud) that they would take it to such a level. I think those who are saying 'cut and run' are making the assumption that you've tried everything else (i hope.) Of course you should maintain awareness of your surroundings, and flee at the first chance you get, but there will be times when that's not possible... which is what I think most people are addressing.

I would like to think that if i broke a guys arm and kept him there until the cops arrived when i could have just as easily cut/killed him that it would demonstrate to the jury that i used only what was necessary, especially when i had more than enough opportunity to escalate it even further.

Any LEOs want to offer their opinion?

...tm
 
No matter where I go I carry something and I highly recommend that for everyone.
The laws don't protect the innocent, they just give the scum sucking $hit bags an edge.
Take the offensive, if needed, otherwise stay alert, stay alive!!

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God bless!

Romans 10:9-10

"Military" Fans Unite!!

 
William, I like your signature. Well done.


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Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse, it's the only way to win.
Outlaw_Dogboy


 
Corduroy - my reference was regarding a young scared student that has just been "grabbed". Sorry to lave out parts.

When my daughter was in Jr high school, a young student was apprehended at the school and later found dead. Small town mountain school). I instructed my daughter that if any stranger were to grab her, she should slash multiple times on the grounds that with no knowledge or experience, a first slash might not "hit" the target. To wait and give the assailant an opportunity to recover was not effective.

I don't think that it is wise to be nice to someone that is trying to hurt you. Especially where children are involved. Just my own point of view. I am not trying to change anyone else's point of view, just offering my own. Naturally every possible opportunity to avoid hurting anyone would always be the first choice. However, once the "attack" has begun and it is aimed at you, there is little time for hindsight.
sal

 
I carry a Spyderco endura and a rescue (breaking in the endura) and a cold steel mini pal on my key chain. nobody in the electronics department cares if I carry a knife but the rent a cops (who has no authority what so ever) would probibly care but I say **** them! I won't be caught with my pants down!
 
Mr. Glesser, I appreciate your filling out that scenario. I certainly wasn't taking exception to what you said, and I hope you didn't feel that way. I'm really just confused about where the situation switches from defense to assault (both realistically and in a jury's eyes).

Certainly slash until you connect with something - an assailant isn't going to be real distracted or shocked if you disturb the air near them. But what next? Pivot and run? Or step in and go for a really solid strike? Maybe a targeted strike? Disable? Kill?

Some of the folks I talk with (not aimed at anyone in this thread specifically) describe defensive strategies that sound like "If I'm attacked, here's how I will proceed to kill that person." I'm not advocating being nice to someone who's trying to hurt me, but I know that it is a fact that I will face a jury if I am forced to defend myself with a knife (and - this is no small point - I do not think that taking life should be a *goal* when one talks of "defense"). Given that I will have my day in court, I'd rather not save my life only to spend it in a cell with someone slightly more successful than my last attacker. So where in a violent encounter do I say "enough" and make my exit?

I guess I had always planned to make one good strike, hopefully on my first swing before they realized I was defending myself, and then run while they were startled and their attention was on the damage. It didn't need to be disabling, in my opinion, because I'd only need ten seconds or so and they probably wouldn't be inclined to follow. I figured that I could defend those actions in court and show that escape had been my only goal. Am I being unrealistic? Should I expect that I need to follow-up with attacks that render them incapable of following me? Incapable of following anyone, ever? And am I merely clouding my judgement on this issue by imaging a prosecuting attorney, or is that concern a proper part of a defensive strategy?

If I'm coming off as a pacifist, well, that's because I am. But I do feel that defense is a right and something everyone should prepare for, and that you have the moral justification to take life in order to save your own. Peace would certainly reign if every criminal thought there was a good chance he or she might get cut (or worse) every time they attempted to victimize someone.

Please, I am young and have a big mouth with little to back it up, but I have big ears, too, and know how to listen. I'm listening now (and have appreciated the words of those who responded) - what do people think is appropriate force, and why?

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Corduroy - I agree with your conclusions. But not for possible court reasons. If I were to choose to hurt something more than was necessary for defense, I would have to question my motives.

I must assume that certainly most of the forumites do not think that we are here to intentionally hurt each other. I believe that those of us that carry a sharp pointy instrument for possible defense, are not planning offensive attacks. Or perhaps protecting those that are not able to defend themselves.

sal
 
Corduroy,

Consider your circumstances, and try not to get locked into specifics when you don't have enough information (which you won't until the 'event' comes down on you).

If I am small of stature, or unable to effectively get away from a threat due to my physique (overweight, handicapped leg, etc), then I would tend to stay in the fight until the attacker was disabled to the point I was sure I could survive the encounter. For example, I have one or two close female friends that if attacked, they could very probably get away with near murder in almost any circumstance, because they could be overpowered so easily. 'Course, if they got the upper hand, then proceeded to step in and inflict a few dozen wounds, they might have a problem getting out of court unscathed.

If you are large of stature, muscle bound, or built like a gazelle with speed to match, you would probably get crucified by the court even if you were defending yourself against Tyson, unless you did a single slash and then ran like the wind.

But, another thing to consider is, if you are standing there with the 'event' coming down around you, and you're waiting to consider if that slash is gonna get you put away in jail, you're probably gonna lose the fight. 'MIND SET', but don't get wrapped up in specifics. You may need to slash and run. Or you may need to slash, slash, and run. Or maybe slash, kick, slash, elbow, and run. I just keep reading of people trying to plan out the details down to the n-th degree. Like the man said about boxing: "You have a plan, and you'll stick with it. Until that first punch lands up'side your head."

So, I guess I wrote a lot, without saying much. Try to train, and try to stay fluid.

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Live fast, die young, and leave a good looking corpse, it's the only way to win.
Outlaw_Dogboy


 
I agree w/ what a lot of you guys are saying about toeing the line b/t defense and unnecessary force. I've been in martial arts for a long time, and have been taught many philosophies to deal w/ a life-endagering situation, from the run if you can, to stay and disable the guy, then run, to punish the guy(s) for every attempt they make at attacking you. The last one could result in killing someone, and I hope that it never results in that. Regardless of whatever philosophy you're taught, however, there still is the idea of (who brought this up?) the proper mind set. What I mean by this, and some of you might agree, is that, in order to be able to make the choice of fight or flight, and to fine tune that judgement from "cut and run" to "bust his ass," you HAVE to practice. By this I not only mean drills, but sparring, too. Being able to use your body in an aggressively-charged situation heightens and sharpens your senses, enabling you to make those critical choices. This is important especially when considering your body type in comparison to your assailant. If you're small, and they're big, and your cardio fitness sucks, and theyr're athletic...Let's just say, if they want to hurt you, you don't want to be sitting around trying to do the math. So train. My personal thoughts currently lean toward limb destruction. Of course, this is preluded by a semi-lengthy exchange of trying not to fight, but if some dumb bastard that might seriously hurt me (and you never know these days), throws a punch or something, I guarantee he won't want to use that limb to attack me again, unless he's some big-time Muay Thai fighter, in which case I'd run like hell. After this, I'm getting outta there. There's no reason to stick around an ended fight, I can always gloat later.
 
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