Combat knives?

Being fairly new to this forum compared to some of the people who have been on here since birth, I'm not an expert by any means. I personally like the KaBar Next Gen for a fighting knife. Not only that, but it's a good solid knife that can take a beating too. In my eyes, that knife could probably cure cancer...
Also, if by chance Kevin "The Joke" (fitting nickname) Walsh is reading this, you can't take James Keating in a knife fight. He would kick your ass. Actually, he'd probably slice your ass right off, along with other various limbs.
 
Modern sabers being descended from Hungarian sabers? What do you mean by modern? The last saber ever adopted by the U.S. Army that I'm aware of was actualy a copy of a British weapon developed in the real early 1900's, and had a narrow, straight, center-pointed blade with a curved handle that had a cup/basket style hilt and it's blade was ground on both sides(but not double-edged, if you follow), not chisel ground. I haven't ever heard of chisel ground Hungarian sabers, but I'll take your word on that. There were a whole lot of different sorts of sabers in use in Europe/America.

I don't think anybody is questioning James Keating's ability as a
knifefighter. It's just that there are a few concerns with bringing a Helle's Belle-type knife into combat. Not that it's not lethal, just matters of pack-ability.

Oh, don't sweat having not been on the forums for a long time. Neither being on the forums since birth nor having "senior member" under your name means anything. What you know is what you know. I for one, judge by what a person says, not who they are or where they're from.

Oh, the Project 1 is barely hollow ground. It's almost more flat than concave, and it just kinda tapers together, if you follow...

Saber ground, as I've always heard it defined, refers idealy to a spine extending 1/3 of the knife's breadth. (only 2/3 the width is ground to the edge)
 
Corduroy, that usage makes sense to me and is consistent. The problem is that there are so many different definations being tossed around. I have seen full flat meaning that there is no secondary bevel even when the grind starts from the middle of the blade.

The most common usage I have encountered is that flat means a straight grind from the spine, sabre means a straight grind not from the spine, convex and hollow have to do with the grind shape and not where they start. I don't like this however as its not consistent (of course me using it from time to time doesn't really help). There should be a seperate term for the grind and the position. I think the terms might have become crossed because different types of grinds (flat,hollow,convex) may have been usually done from a specific height so the heights in some cases often got brought into the defination even though that was not what the name was referring to.

Anyway, so the Project would be sabre-hollow and the A1 sabre-flat. How do you make the distinction of a secondary edge bevel or not?

Snickersnee :

Nemo said he thought it chopped better because the cutting edge is thin, and then wides quite a bit as you go up. Chips/wedges the wood out. This is why the Project splits wood better too.

That makes sense to me. I like the idea of hollow grind for that type of work for exactly those reasons. My only concern would be the fragility of the thin edge. However it does not seem like the Project suffers much in that regard. Have you had any problems with it?

Maybe you guys are just a bunch of girly-men

If you ever saw me and confused me with a member of the fairer sex, all I can say is that you must have some butt ugly women out your way.

-Cliff
 
I guess when I think of a combat knife, I think of this day and age. I don't think about soldiers, I think about civilians and their need for a "leg up" in today's inner city battleground. Something compact and practical comes to mind, something that can be used for utility first and foremost with a design-innate ability for defense. MMMMMMMMmmmmmmm... Axis.
 
My comments on this thread are in no way against Mr Keatings knowledge on knife fighting. He is clearly a master in that field.

I questioned his opinion on Bagwell style (and size) fighting knives suitability as soldiers' weapons in the modern military battlefields when not limited to some Spec Ops. The fact that Mr Keating is a master knife fighter does not automatically give him knowledge on military combat. If he has been in the military (on that thing no-one has commented) I would like to hear more of his opinions concerning the use of an Bagwell-style fighting knife in military applications.

Professor, please do not try to make a new interpretation of the subject of this topic. We are talking about military combat now. There has been, and will surely be, enough topics on civilian self defence, but the "real" military knifes need to be discussed as well. If you are an academic like your nick suggests you know that research should concentrate around the main problem, and if that is forgotten whole project can fail.

BTW, it would be so much easier to speak about military subjects if all American men made military service as we do here in Finland, and in many other countries around the world. Always someone wants to speak about civilian combat and thinks military is just about the same. Even a short military service teach a lot.

Ossi
 
I agree 100% with those that feel saber-ground is a lousy term. I was trying to achieve some clarity on what it maent, but I wish we simply had a better term.

Mr. Stamp, when you say the secondary edge bevel, are you referring to the bevel that produces the cutting edge? I usually call this the "bevel" and the primary angle the "grind." I'm not suggesting that what I do is either common or correct, but I find it does keep the two separate. I assume that nearly ever hollow-ground and flat-ground knife will have a bevel, and this bevel may itself be hollow, flat, or convex. Convex-ground knives may or may not have a bevel, as it is easy for them to have a cutting edge that continues from the primary grind (e.g. Blackjacks in Randall patterns). Does this make sense?

As for Mr. Keating's comments, I have to agree that his background in the somewhat esoteric art of true knife-fighting may be biasing his opinion. My armchair opinion is that the Bagwells are the ultimate fighters, but are unsuitable as combat knives. They are far more knife than most soldiers would want to carry; may be too large for some utility tasks; and have large, complex guards that would undoubtedly be in the way in utility work, or hang up in foliage if the knife were used as a machete. Furthermore, I think that the chances of a soldier killing anyone with a knife are rare and confined to special circumstances. For most of those circumstances, the target is unawares and what they really want is a "killer," not a "fighter" (as per my previous post). I'm curious how many folks have heard of soldiers getting in knife-vs-knife duels? I doubt this happens enough to warrant carrying a tool specifically geared towards this.

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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
 
Corduroy, In my 23 years of military service, the only knife on knife duel I've even heard of was in the movie "Hell is for Heroes" (I think that's the name) where the American and Russian soldiers in post WWII Berlin argued over who was going to walk the plank over a puddle late one night. They both ended up with the other soldiers knife in their guts (the Russian's small boot knife and the American's Italian stilleto type switchblade, no "combat" or "fighting" knives as discussed here)--I think the producer's comment on the standoff between the US and USSR of the day.

I'm not using anything but my (or someone else's) M-16 or M-9 Baretta until I'm, and everyone around me is out of ammo. Then, a fixed bayonet is next, followed by my entrenching tool (small shovel), and lastly, my combat knife. I never want to take a knife to a gunfight!
 
Corduroy, that makes sense to me and clearly separates the three. I don't think I have seen a hollow grind on a knife without an edge bevel, but I seem to recall some straight razors made like tha.? It not like there are any durability concerns with them though. Flat grinds without bevels are not uncommon though. Mel Sorg will make knives like this, it does require either a really tough steel or really light use to be practical.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, nope. No problems with the edge whatsoever. Like I said, it's not even what I'd really term "hollow ground". It widens abruptly, but but more like a ramp. The skinny part is almost flat. Anyway, it's proven itself to be very tough. If you've been considering one, I can tell you with confidence to go ahead and buy one. They are great knives. I wouldn't mind if they were a bit cheaper, but I have never regretted the purchase.

As to mandatory military service for American men, I would have to say I agree in theory. In practice, America is all about freedom of choice, in theory. I couldn't in good concience say "you are x years old, it's time for you to enlist".

And I'm about as pro-military as you can get. I've been trying to get in for a number of years. Unfortunately, I've done some dumb things in my past that make this difficult. But my failure to be a soldier is not for lack of trying.

However, I wholeheartedly agree that experience in one thing doesn't neccesarily mean experience in another. Just because you're a good knife fighter doesn't neccesarily mean you know anything about military combatives. Just because you're a cop doesn't automaticaly mean that you know anything about streetfighting. I would go so far as to say just because you're a soldier doesn't mean you know all about war, in asmuch as many soldiers have never gone to war.

Knives still have their place in combat. At least they did in WWII. My Grandfather killed a number of Nazi's with a knife on his way out of Europe to America. A couple more as a Infantry Sgt. in the U.S. Army a few years later. It's a matter of context. In context, the knife is still a valid weapon, out of context, it's not.
 
As nearly as I can tell, the various contenders for "best military combat knife" have four things in common:

- A point
- An edge
- People who swear by it
- People who swear at it

It is hard to imagine two knives more different from each other than a kukri and a puukko, yet both are traditional civilian working knives that have gone to war in the hands of soldiers whose enemies came to fear their knife work.

And (to Ossi, among others) where can I find more details, including time and place, of that Finnish knife battle in the dark?
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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 24 June 1999).]
 
Hello.
I am from Croatia, and some of you maybe know that we had violent war here 1991. - 1995. when we struggled for indepedence.
I will bring up some experiences (if I may).
I was in anti-tank gun brigade (100mm T-12 AT guns) and my best man was in special police unit. That is not usual police unit but something between military specs and anti-terrorist unit. One of the best units during war.
They have carried (among other equipment) a Cold Steel SRK knives as standard part of equipment. These knives have been used as you said in this thread as COMBAT knives, not to fight with enemy but for support during actions against enemy.
He has used SRK during preparation of temporary camp positions most of his time. Knife has been carried in EVERY action. Now he has two major objections:

- knife is strong but when chop 1 mm barb wire it chip
- many of knives was lost (during marches or reconnaissance) in the bush, woods or mountains because of bad safety notch on SRKs sheet

SRK hasn*t been used for silent elimination but will be good for that if necessary. I think that Bagwell type knives are nonsense for combat usage (specially in hostile environment).

Sorry for possible language mistakes.

Kurdy.
 
James has the most relivant post on this subject. In my immediate family we have twelve cobat arm veterans from Korea to desert Storm. Here are the knives they carried.

1. case stockman and Randall md.1
2. Case sodbuster and pilot s/k civilian copy
3. case trapper and Marbles fieldcraft
4. issue cataragus Para knife and Case issue
jungle bowie salvaged from downed aircraft
5. case stockman and Randall md.2(retread #1)
6. SAK/Spanish switchblade and Randall md.14
7. Gerber MKII Case Trapper
8. Gerber MKII and Buck 110
9. Buck General and Buck 110
10.Buck 110 and Randall md.14 (retread #6&8)
11.Leatherman and Randall md.14
12.Case stockman/KABAR/Collins machete

Not too shabby. All these country boys were raised on a sharecropped farm in rural TN.

Cheers,

ts



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"Cet animal est tres mechant;quand on l'attaque il se defend."("This animal is very mischievous: when it is attacked it defends itself")
 
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