Common materials being cut

[skammer]

Skammer, could you provide a little more detail on the splitting process, I can't picture it exactly. The closest I can think on that was something my brother does which is drive the blade partially into the wood and just jump in it in order to split the wood by a violent twist. This is insanely dangerous though and not something I would recommend.

-Cliff

Sorry Cliff,

To put it more clearly. I like to demonstrate pying and splitting on standing deadwood trees I call logs for lack of a better term. Works on stumps as well.

I will baton the blade down the dead tree until solid wood is found and then pry it open until it splits to its base. This way you don't have to pin the tree to keep it steady when prying.

This method also works well with live wood when I need green wood for projects.

Hope that clears it up. I need to take a pic or two of this.

Skam

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...standing deadwood trees

Ok, got it now, I just could not figure how you kept the wood from moving. That is a very quick way to gain easily burnt with a stout blade. I'd have to run at least 3/16" thickness before I'd feel comfortable on a small blade say 4" and under, no distal taper either. I'd want at least 1/4" on seven inches and above.

-Cliff

 

[skammer]

The following are a list of limitations for a blade in my course:

No stainless steel.

Minimum length is 5 inches, 7-8 being the ideal length to utility weight ratio.

A convex edge I find to be durable and easy to sharpen for my students.

Hardness is irrelevant to me as there are many more aspects that make up a blades utility and durablity than its RC.

The following are makers that I recommend, some more than others in no particular order:

Cold Steel
Swamp Rat
Ontario
Becker
Busse
Camillus

There are many makers not on the list who either didn't make the cut for various reasons or I have never used so can't comment.

Within each maker there are better blades than others but I don't want to start a flame war.

For people new to REAL survival knives those above are a good start and one can find a decent blade in all price ranges. The warranties are not all the same so do your research.

Your mileage may vary.

Skam

 

[riverotter]

Skammer,

I would be interested in your opinion as to which model knives within each of your recommended brands you would or would not recommend. You can send me an email so as not to start a flame war ..... unless you feel devilish today.

Jim

 

[Brian Jones]

UH,OH, JIM!

No flame wars here....everyone has a preference and Skam knows his stuff, so I'd love to see his opinions here, too.


~B.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

No stainless steel.

Durability issues? How do you feel about the very high alloy tool steels?

Hardness is irrelevant to me as there are many more aspects that make up a blades utility and durablity than its RC.

It isn't as universal as often claimed but it is kind of critical to performance especially for the kind of uses you described which are demanding durability ise.

Kevin McClung for example leaves the edges of his O1 knives at ~62 HRC, even on the large choppers / prying tools, they don't hold up well on hard contacts.

In contast I have a small hollow ground utility knife in O1 at 64 HRC which works very well as a precision cutter, but no way it would survive for the above.

However O1 at 58 HRC with a spring back would be solid.

-Cliff

 

[skammer]

We are into the definition of stainless now. It is my understanding that there is no truely stainless steel as it will all rust given time and conditions. Thus I am a real fan of decent coatings.

That being said when I say stainless I mean a very high crome content ( I am no chemist ) . It seems the cheap steel made stainless by a high crome content is VERY brittle and chips readily. I have had a few students blades snap off right at the grip with little torque.

As you mentioned Cliff some makers have struck a combo of reliable alloy steel and high stain resistence. These work great but I do not consider them stainless steel in my own traditional way.

RC is important but like I said there is so much more than that I dont pay attention to it realy. The mind can explode when analyzing a blades RC, its tempering diferentially or not, its grind, its geometry, its thickness etc............ . It think RC is a guideline but not the whole story by any stretch.

We are also into the so called "Survival Knife" definition issue which is a hot topic in its own right. While I have seen smaller blades in action, I know they are limited in their utility. Yes, I know the mighty Mora is the blade of all blades but I see it differently. The Mora is a nice little blade but I wouldn't pry it or abuse it thus its of little value to me.

"A FOLDER IS NOT A SURVIVAL KNIFE NO MATTER WHO MAKES IT OR HOW MUCH IT COSTS!!!!"

It is very hard to split logs with any blade less than 5-6 inches in length. When batoning a log the blade must be of sufficient length to pound on and to pry with.

Chopping is another thread all together and just as important.

This debate will never be won as definitions vary. All I know is when I demonstrate the survival use of a blade to my students it is immediately apparent to them their blade will either make the grade or probably wont.

At the end of the day a blade that wont or can't chop or pry is not a "Survival Knife".

One thing to consider which is fact not fiction. Most if not the VAST majority of survival instructors favor a large blade for the exact reasons above. People who ask why this is, need more training and experience.

Your mileage may vary.

Skam

 

[longbow50]

I like the Mora's, but they aren't strong enough to do anything but very lite prying. I did some bataning with the M2K and it did a decent job.

I picked up a Becker 7 some time ago, for my survival knife. My decision was based on price (under 50.00) and Cliff's evaluation of the blade. Not the best knife in the survival category, but it is a very good knife in my opinion.

I bought a BRKT NorthStar with full convex blade. I have used the knife for most things I'd encounter in the bush, including bataning and lite duty prying and it does a good job. It's a tough little knife and I wouldn't feel a bit undertooled with it as my only knife in any emergency.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It is my understanding that there is no truely stainless steel as it will all rust given time and conditions.

There are a few, H1 for example won't rust in any enviroment a person could survive, and then there are the host of Stellite alloys, Beta-Ti is also immune to corrosion and unlike the Stellite alloys very tough and flexible.

Ti is fairly soft though, you can hit a knot with one of the serrations and mangle it, plus if they come in hard contact (cut belted rubber / tubing) you can grind them right off the blade.

I prefer the low alloy tool steels for the combination of strength and toughness. I don't see any need for wear resistance in that type of blade unless you get it for free as with INFI for example.

It think RC is a guideline but not the whole story by any stretch.

Yeah, you can even get at the same hardness by different methods which produce a different blade so you can't run with it alone.

I know the mighty Mora is the blade of all blades ...

It is primarly a light bushcraft knife intended to be used alongside an axe or larger chopping blade. I prefer something different myself depending on what else I have to carry. A lot depends on your methods though, my brother does things different than me and prefers different knives. He considers the Mora and similar knives to be useless, he won't even carry them for evaluation purposes.

"A FOLDER IS NOT A SURVIVAL KNIFE NO MATTER WHO MAKES IT OR HOW MUCH IT COSTS!!!!"

Most people tend to argue these as "better than nothing", though there are some like Ritter who argue against large blades/axes due to the inherent danger of chopping and will advocate folders as direct survival knives, including for batoning and similar.

If you have the time and inclination I'd like to have you run a Fulcrum IID some time, it is one of the heavier of the pry bar class folders. I am not concerned about anything happening to it, just treat it like you found it alongside the road for free and intend to throw it away at the end of the day.

Personally I don't see chopping as being so difficult to learn to do, here kids use axes (or used to a generation ago) well before they are 10. I don't recall any serious injuries. In fact the only tool use that resulted in a serious injury (going back a few generations) was when someone was killed when the head of a maul came off while driving stakes.

It is very hard to split logs with any blade less than 5-6 inches in length.

Yeah you either have to take it off in sections, or work with the point, neither of which ar overly efficient. If I have a smaller knife I tend to prefer a 12-14" blade for ease of limbing and general brush work, if it is a primary work knife then I'll reduce the length but not by a lot.

-Cliff

 

[skammer]

Mora's are decent blades no question about it. I own 2.

They are not however a surivival knife by "my " definition. They are 2 short, thin, can't chop or pry with them so are of little value to me in a survival situation.

I use mine camping all the time and they are good for that.

Your Becker however is a decent survival blade no question.

I have handled a Northstar but never used one. They look like nice blades, I'd love to try one out.

One of the questions I ask my students to judge their confidence in their blades is: Would you let me pry with it after batoning it solidly into a log and applying several hundred pounds of torque on it?

The answers vary as you can imagine.

Skam

 

[Cliff Stamp]

They are 2 short, thin, can't chop or pry with them ...

You can get Leuko's which are a similar design but 7" blades, you can do light chopping with them, they work ok for Alders and other soft and spring materials, but a 2x4" it out of their class chopping wise. Can't pry with them at all of course, they just bend, if you need torques you have to twist them which is fairly limited though as the blade is narrow.

-Cliff

 

[skammer]

Most people tend to argue these as "better than nothing", though there are some like Ritter who argue against large blades/axes due to the inherent danger of chopping and will advocate folders as direct survival knives, including for batoning and similar.

If you have the time and inclination I'd like to have you run a Fulcrum IID some time, it is one of the heavier of the pry bar class folders. I am not concerned about anything happening to it, just treat it like you found it alongside the road for free and intend to throw it away at the end of the day.

Personally I don't see chopping as being so difficult to learn to do; here kids use axes (or used to a generation ago) well before they are 10. I don't recall any serious injuries. In fact the only tool use that resulted in a serious injury (going back a few generations) was when someone was killed when the head of a maul came off while driving stakes.

-Cliff


While I think Doug does good marine watchdog work I think he is more a journalist when it comes to land based core survival. I disagree also with some of his philosophy’s. Don't get me started on his forums and how they are moderated and run . That said he has a load of good info on his site.

I have a mental block about prying folders wince.

Even a couple decades ago we did things that would make the PC crowds hair stand on end. We were non-the worse for wear either. We are raising a generation of wimps, kids without fear, conscience or any core skills outside hand eye co-ordination with a joystick. PC is evil beyond comprehension and its full effects will not be felt or understood until decades from now.

Skam

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have a mental block about prying folders wince.

Some of the crappy ones are useless, but the decent ones can take the strain of the blade before the handles break. Depends on the lock, liners/integrals are problematic, back locks are fairly robust.

Even a couple decades ago we did things that would make the PC crowds hair stand on end.

I was using an axe when I was about five, I wasn't in school at the time. I still have all my limbs.I started off just collecting the boughs and burning them while my father cleaned up the wood.

This was under ten years old and feeding a fire which was way larger than I was, and if you ever have thrown green boughs on a fire you know what it can do. Now people would look at you like you are mental if you asked a kid to run a barbeque.

Kids at the same age cut out cod tonques all day long, if your father was a fisherman then by 7-8 years old you were using razor sharp knives and you worked really fast as you got payed by the tonque and got the massive sum of a cent a tonque (this wasn't yesterday).

The idea of knives and axes being "dangerous" is completely foreign, it is changing of course and not for the better.

-Cliff

 

[sodak]

Ok, now I *have* to ask...

Cutting out cod tongue? I didn't know that the mob had such a strong base in your neck of the woods! Did they talk too much to the wrong people? Can you tell I'm not a fisherman?

I have to agree about the general way that our respective societies are moving. My kids are getting a unique education, to say the least... Only 5 years old, and they can tell you why my truck has 3 pedals and what they all do...

PS - Don't feel bad, Cliff. My first job was cutting grass and digging graves in a cemetery for $2 an hour.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Did they talk too much to the wrong people?

If you drink enough Newfie Screech you can probably get the cod to talk to you.

-Cliff

 

[LeeBower]

Even a couple decades ago we did things that would make the PC crowds hair stand on end. We were non-the worse for wear either. We are raising a generation of wimps, kids without fear, conscience or any core skills outside hand eye co-ordination with a joystick. PC is evil beyond comprehension and its full effects will not be felt or understood until decades from now.

I think your right on the money Skammer. It scares me when I see the neighbors kid running around the yard with his helmet on...his parents make him wear a helmet just about anytime he is outside..poor kid. Scars are souvenirs you never lose and all that, but more important, pain has a way of teaching like no other I agree whole heartedly with your PC assessment...It scares me to see the changes that have occured in my lifetime, much less what is coming.

 

[Brian6244]

For me it's wood, wood, and more wood. Hard wood, soft wood, frozen wood and dirt-filled wood. Oh and rope, skin, meat and other plant material that is not wood.

 

[Moine]

Cutting light metal is less demanding than batoning through less than ideal wood, by light metal I mean food containers. An edge at 10 degrees per side with a 20 degree non-visble micro-bevel can do this, even on production stainless steels. It has its uses in wilderness work, for example taking a pop can and cutting out a swivel to use fishing.

Pop cans are so thin you can almost cut through them with your teeth... if you don't mind cutting your lips a little. I use scissors to cut into them and it doesn't even dull them.

Thicker soft metal (like a real can, or sheet iron) will dull ANY blade, but it will never ruin the edge totally. I've cut into an old coffee can with an Opinel just last week. I had a hard time so I hammered the can on a bench and used a baton to cut through more easily. The Opinel came out dull, but not chipped, rolled or anything. And that was a reprofiled Opinel with a slightly convex moranish edge (no bevel, just one big, thin slightly convex shape, approx 2° per side at the steepest).

I tried doing the same thing with my Howler, and it performed very poorly. The thinker edge forced me to spread and bend the metal a lot more, which meant a lot more work. The edge on it was ALSO dull after cutting the metal, of course. NO blade will come out of that shaving sharp. Or else I trade my car for it in a heartbeat

What do I cut with a knife ?

Everything that I need to get cut. Mostly wood, but also bone, skin, hide, muscle, sinew, cartilage, metal, snow, ice, cloth, plastic, plants... Anything. I just know that, sometimes, I'll have to resharpen.

Hitting a rock while chopping happens, but I never dig with my blades. A stick does it. Given I need to do it, I know that it will mean resharpening, that's all.

The only thing that really sucks in a knife, IMHO, is a brittle blade. I'd pick a soft iron blade over an over-hardened one anytime.

Cheers,

David

 

[Blueeyeddevil]

I know this is a somewhat off topic, but Moine's avatar character looks incredibly like some sort of mutated "Sharp" Phil. :

 

[Cliff Stamp]

NO blade will come out of that shaving sharp.

M2 at 65 HRC will cut such light metals well, being designed to do it, I have done it with ZDP-189 and the blade still shaved, though required a slice, but wasn't optimal before the cutting anyway.

I cut open a can of mushrooms, plus style opening, two intersecting cuts across the face of the can. Edge at ~10 degrees per side. NIB edge visibly chipped on the same cutting, but never pay attention to that anyway.

For metal cutting you want a very hard edge to resist deforming and high wear resistance, hardness tends to be more important in the short term, especially with very thin knife edges as they deform more so than wear.

-Cliff