Community Quality Control Measures and an Investigation

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IaccidentlyCutmyThumb

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Dec 11, 2020
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I'm surprised I have to make a thread like this, but here we are. For those of you who don't know, member Bloodloss did an amazing thing recently and tested the "SK5" that was featured in a Cold Steel knife he bought in 2019 (so no complaining about GSM on this fellas) and found the elements did not match up with the recipe for SK5, specifically, the carbon content was much too high (in the upper .9%'s). Now, he has said that this was a sample size of one, but given the breaks we've seen of Cold Steel "SK5" we have to believe that it's probably a contributing factor to the overall amount of breaks we've seen in knives made of this steel by Cold Steel.

I know they make a lot of these knives, and perhaps the failure rate isn't as bad as we think.

I know there could have been some mistake with Bloodloss' testing.

But there have been a lot of issues with Cold Steels recently. I am not alone in seeing this. So this thread is reaching out to the community to see if people would be interested in performing compositional testing and HRC testing of other Cold Steel products to ensure they are what they are labelled as. I have a 52100 Drop Forged Survivalist I love, and it seems like it is in fact 52100, given that I've thrown it into a bunch of stumps and never had it break. But...it doesn't hold an edge as well as I thought it would. Maybe that was because the edge was too fat and it wasn't able to get a good edge on it. I reprofiled it but haven't used it yet. Now I'm wondering if the 52100 is in fact, 52100. It's a really good price for 52100, and now that's raising my eyebrows a little.

I think it might be beneficial to ensure the AUS-10, AUS-8, 52100, other "SK-5's", 4116, O1, etc., made in the Taiwan factory, are in fact, the steels they say they are, or if there are any issues across CS' product line. Because their "SK-5", if it does have (across multiple knives) the composition that Bloodloss found, is not SK-5. It's 1095 with impurities. I am willing to bet good money all of their American made steels are exactly what they say they are.

I'm not suggesting CS is scamming it's customers. But I think we should be wary and investigate the issues ourselves, because the company sure as heck doesn't seem to want to. To anyone who says this is uncalled for, I'd agree...if we weren't seeing evidence suggesting that there are some major QC issues at CS right now and I don't think anyone wants to put blind faith into the company (or any corporation) these days. I doubt there is any widespread mislabeling of products, but this has happened at other major companies before. I won't name names. It may not even be CS' at fault if the results are bad...it could be the factory pulling a scam on everyone, or just a simple mistake on orders or something. Who knows? I just want to see if there are inconsistencies.

If anyone has the resources to test more knives, I think it would be awesome if you said that here and we could do a lil public investigation into what's up with the steels.

EDIT: Just to make it clear, I don't think CS is scamming anyone or that anything is going on that is nefarious or illegal...I think occam's razor suggests it's more likely there is no issue than anything and if there is a repeated issue there's an accident or mistake rather than any ill intent at play. I just want to see how consistent CS' products are.
 
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IaccidentlyCutmyThumb said:
I'm surprised I have to make a thread like this, but here we are. For those of you who don't know, member Bloodloss did an amazing thing recently and tested the "SK5" that was featured in a Cold Steel knife he bought in 2019 (so no complaining about GSM on this fellas) and found the elements did not match up with the recipe for SK5, specifically, the carbon content was much too high (in the upper .9%'s). Now, he has said that this was a sample size of one, but given the breaks we've seen of Cold Steel "SK5" we have to believe that it's probably a contributing factor to the overall amount of breaks we've seen in knives made of this steel by Cold Steel.

I know they make a lot of these knives, and perhaps the failure rate isn't as bad as we think.

I know there could have been some mistake with Bloodloss' testing.

But there have been a lot of issues with Cold Steels recently. I am not alone in seeing this. So this thread is reaching out to the community to see if people would be interested in performing compositional testing and HRC testing of other Cold Steel products to ensure they are what they are labelled as. I have a 52100 Drop Forged Survivalist I love, and it seems like it is in fact 52100, given that I've thrown it into a bunch of stumps and never had it break. But...it doesn't hold an edge as well as I thought it would. Maybe that was because the edge was too fat and it wasn't able to get a good edge on it. I reprofiled it but haven't used it yet. Now I'm wondering if the 52100 is in fact, 52100. It's a really good price for 52100, and now that's raising my eyebrows a little.

I think it might be beneficial to ensure the AUS-10, AUS-8, 52100, other "SK-5's", 4116, O1, etc., made in the Taiwan factory, are in fact, the steels they say they are. Because their "SK-5", if it does have (across multiple knives) the composition that Bloodloss found, is not SK-5. It's 1095 with impurities. I am willing to bet good money all of their American made steels are exactly what they say they are.

I'm not suggesting CS is scamming it's customers. But I think we should be wary and investigate the issues ourselves, because the company sure as heck doesn't seem to want to. To anyone who says this is uncalled for, I'd agree...if we weren't seeing evidence suggesting that there are some major QC issues at CS right now and I don't think anyone wants to put blind faith into the company (or any corporation) these days. It may not even be CS' at fault if the results are bad...it could be the factory pulling a scam on everyone.

If anyone has the resources to test more knives, I think it would be awesome if you said that here and we could do a lil public investigation into what's up with the steels.
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I confess that I was not aware of any of this, personally I have not had any problems with any of my CS, quite the opposite, they are all superb performers and superb values. Anyway, leaving aside the SK5 issue, what systematic failure has been reported? Please take into account that what you are suggesting is no joke.
 
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We have seen quite a few issues with SK5 from CS in the recent past. People have come up with so many reasons, that it doesn't do well in the cold, that it's HT'd to allow for better edge retention as opposed to toughness, that it had a high HRC. The reality is that SK5 is an extremely tough steel and shouldn't have the issues it has in Cold Steel. My "SK5" Bushman is very stiff for a throwing knife, and I would be willing to sacrifice my example as part of a test. I would also be willing to supply an "SK-5" Recon Tanto, my Drop Forged Survivalist, an AUS-10A Mini Pendleton Hunter, and a 4116 Outdoorsman Lite for testing.

Part of the failures might be attributable to the SRK in a hollow grind not having as strong a tip, but I've seen a few reputable Youtubers (Cedric and Ada comes to mind) have issues with chipping in their Bushman knives, which should be soft and more resistant to chipping, as well as forum members here. But still, I've seen a lot of reports of issues with the Cold Steel "SK5" on other sites and reviews.

EDIT: I just noticed that you said aside from "SK-5", what issues have there been. Not too many, but some people have reported chipping issues with like their AUS-8A, but nothing en masse (although one could argue the issue with Secure-Ex dulling the blades, and the company's response aren't great). I love all the Cold Steels I have, asides from the Bushman that seems really weirdly stiff for a throwing knife and had it's sheath break like within 24 hours of me owning the knife. For the non-"SK-5" steels I just want to see if they have any inconsistencies as well.

Please understand that I love Cold Steel, and I see their knives as really, really good, or at least with the potential to be really good. I recently acquired an older SRK in AUS-8A and it's phenomenal. The SRK in particular is a passion point of mine because I see it as a Falkneiven but with a better steel choice (ostensibly) for survival. I just want the company's products to be what they can be. Because right now it seems, and again, this is why I'm asking for the testing, that they are not what they could be.
 
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Testing should always be done and encouraged. Could be chalked up to bad HT on a particular batch of knives that went overlooked.

Lack of testing is lack of information. Test and report, Let the people decide how to interpret the results.
 
Jack of All Blades said:
Testing should always be done and encouraged. Could be chalked up to bad HT on a particular batch of knives that went overlooked.

Lack of testing is lack of information. Test and report, Let the people decide how to interpret the results.
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Exactly. Hopefully people are willing to contribute. I'm interested in what we might learn.
 
If Cold Steel's SK5 showed a Carbon content in in the high 0.9's, without knowing the other contents, that would put it at an SK4 level,
SK4 is widely used in Japan for monosteel cooking knives.The original MACV-CISO SOG vietnam knives were made with SK3 which had even less Carbon.
SK5 is a Japanese tool steel, succesully used by SOG (the company) for decades with no issues. But SK5 is now made all over the world, China, Taiuwan, India etc so
there's no guarantee about the HT quality. Cold Steel's SK5 is not sourced from Japan.
 
KenHash said:
If Cold Steel's SK5 showed a Carbon content in in the high 0.9's, without knowing the other contents, that would put it at an SK4 level,
SK4 is widely used in Japan for monosteel cooking knives.The original MACV-CISO SOG vietnam knives were made with SK3 which had even less Carbon.
SK5 is a Japanese tool steel, succesully used by SOG (the company) for decades with no issues. But SK5 is now made all over the world, China, Taiuwan, India etc so
there's no guarantee about the HT quality. Cold Steel's SK5 is not sourced from Japan.
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Right, but if the blades that are supposed to be SK-5 are in reality SK-4, that presents issues both in terms of the validity of sale (misrepresentation, intentional or not) and in terms of having a heat treat for the incorrect steel. What I want to know is what these blades are really made of, true SK-5 or "SK-5." Because if we're being honest, a part of me suspects that Cold Steel is less likely to have a wonky heat treat than to source steel from a cheaper source, which might be ripping them off. CS' history with heat treats is about as good as a major producer can get. Then again, anything can happen.

For the record, I hope the knives are SK-5. I love the idea of SK-5, although I've never owned a knife that wasn't CS that was made of it. True SK-5 is one of the toughest steels going. Hultafors, as I often mention, say it's okay to hit their SK-5 knives with hammers to force them through stuff. That's insane toughness.

I just want to figure it out.
 
IaccidentlyCutmyThumb said:
Right, but if the blades that are supposed to be SK-5 are in reality SK-4, that presents issues both in terms of the validity of sale (misrepresentation, intentional or not) and in terms of having a heat treat for the incorrect steel. What I want to know is what these blades are really made of, true SK-5 or "SK-5." Because if we're being honest, a part of me suspects that Cold Steel is less likely to have a wonky heat treat than to source steel from a cheaper source, which might be ripping them off. CS' history with heat treats is about as good as a major producer can get. Thenel again, anything can happen.

For the record, I hope the knives are SK-5. I love the idea of SK-5, although I've never owned a knife that wasn't CS that was made of it. True SK-5 is one of the toughest steels going. Hultafors, as I often mention, say it's okay to hit their SK-5 knives with hammers to force them through stuff. That's insane toughness.

I just want to figure it out.
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SK5 isn't a high end specialty steel, available from many sources now, and not so costly as to make "fakiing it" worthwhile for anybody. Cold Steel has been working with SK5 for quite a ways back, well before the GSM takeover.
Decades ago Cold Steel "experimented" with having the Trail Master manufactured in China with china sourced SK5 steel. A number of these were sold and you can still fins the odd China made Trail Master pop up for sale occasionally. However. Cold Steel terminated their contract with China pretty quickly citing "quality issies" and shifted production to Taiwan. Where, TMs have since been made in SK5 and 01 without any issues. So Cold Steel knows SK5 and Taiwan manufactures very well and they are not likely to get "ripped off" in this industry. My bet would be on HT issues as can arise at the factory level for any maker, and in fact pretty much do now and then.
But- as you say, if CS's SK5 is in reality SK4, then it qualifies as product misrepresentation. Howver, I am pretty sure that SK4 is a more expensive steel than SK5. So that would be a little puzzling as well.
 
KenHash said:
SK5 isn't a high end specialty steel, available from many sources now, and not so costly as to make "fakiing it" worthwhile for anybody. Cold Steel has been working with SK5 for quite a ways back, well before the GSM takeover.
Decades ago Cold Steel "experimented" with having the Trail Master manufactured in China with china sourced SK5 steel. A number of these were sold and you can still fins the odd China made Trail Master pop up for sale occasionally. However. Cold Steel terminated their contract with China pretty quickly citing "quality issies" and shifted production to Taiwan. Where, TMs have since been made in SK5 and 01 without any issues. So Cold Steel knows SK5 and Taiwan manufactures very well and they are not likely to get "ripped off" in this industry. My bet would be on HT issues as can arise at the factory level for any maker, and in fact pretty much do now and then.
But- as you say, if CS's SK5 is in reality SK4, then it qualifies as product misrepresentation. Howver, I am pretty sure that SK4 is a more expensive steel than SK5. So that would be a little puzzling as well.
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I have no idea if the knife is or is not SK5 or SK4. That's why I want to test lol. I agree that SK5 isn't high end or specialty. But it is supposed to be tough, and we've seen a few instances where CS' "SK5" has not been as tough as you'd expect 1080/1084 to be, and a guy has had his knife tested to not be within the spec of SK5. I just think that warrants some investigation and attention.

I also think these issues have nothing to do with GSM whatsoever. I've read about issues for years with their "SK5" before the takeover. And it could be nothing, could be heat treat (but they still haven't fixed it??), could be grinds, could be steel, could be something we can't measure or know.
 
Andrew Demko commented on this exact issue. As I recall, he said something along the lines of you order the knives in a particular steel, say Aus8a or SK5, the factories tell you okay and give a great price, then they deliver something totally different that they say is the same or equivalent. He said they do that all the time and if you dont seriously test and monitor you get burned. I have heard that from other sources and industries as well, that you simply cannot trust anything coming out of China unless you test it yourself.

But how do we, as buyers, know where the steel REALLY came from. Aus8a, for example, is Japanese. Sorry, real Aus8a is Japanese, but China will happily sell you their version for less. If you think it is the same you are mistaken. They will build the buildings and bridges that their own families drive on out of duct tape and Styrofoam, just imagine how little they care about the steel in some foreigner's pocketknife. Might look good on the surface, but that's about it. Hell, we are talking about the same folks who shipped poisonous baby formula and dog food and drywall and....

Remember too the problems Cold Steel had sourcing actual quality A2. How many batches did they test and reject before giving up completely? Only some v3ry expensive American A2 even came close to the standard.

This is why I am pretty well finished with GSM. Cold Steel struggled to maintain quality in a world filled with deception, fraud, and garbage. They actually tried. GSM, in my opinion, will almost certainly embrace the trash metals. China SK5 for half the price? Sounds like a bargain, just make sure you label it properly and no one can say a word.

All of the above is just my opinion and concerns.
 
Chris_Texas said:
Andrew Demko commented on this exact issue. As I recall, he said something along the lines of you order the knives in a particular steel, say Aus8a or SK5, the factories tell you okay and give a great price, then they deliver something totally different that they say is the same or equivalent. He said they do that all the time and if you dont seriously test and monitor you get burned. I have heard that from other sources and industries as well, that you simply cannot trust anything coming out of China unless you test it yourself.

But how do we, as buyers, know where the steel REALLY came from. Aus8a, for example, is Japanese. Sorry, real Aus8a is Japanese, but China will happily sell you their version for less. If you think it is the same you are mistaken. They will build the buildings and bridges that their own families drive on out of duct tape and Styrofoam, just imagine how little they care about the steel in some foreigner's pocketknife. Might look good on the surface, but that's about it. Hell, we are talking about the same folks who shipped poisonous baby formula and dog food and drywall and....

Remember too the problems Cold Steel had sourcing actual quality A2. How many batches did they test and reject before giving up completely? Only some v3ry expensive American A2 even came close to the standard.

This is why I am pretty well finished with GSM. Cold Steel struggled to maintain quality in a world filled with deception, fraud, and garbage. They actually tried. GSM, in my opinion, will almost certainly embrace the trash metals. China SK5 for half the price? Sounds like a bargain, just make sure you label it properly and no one can say a word.

All of the above is just my opinion and concerns.
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I appreciate the response Chris, and I have known many businesses who have had issues with sourcing from China as well. I would like to point out, however, that the SK-5 issues were prevalent prior to the GSM acquisition. I know it's heresy to say on a CS sub-forum, but this is not GSM's fault. Whether it increases or decreases under their purview, who knows? Only time will tell. This thread may go a while before I update it with findings, because I'm very busy right now, but once I get a little time I'm very interested in testing some of the SK-5 blades I have.
 
I wonder why Cold Steel didn't just stick with the O-1 tool steel that they were already using prior to the announcement of A-2, which was supposed to be an upgrade? It was over two years before they (Cold Steel not GSM) came forward and told us that the promised A-2 knives would not be available due to the inconsistent quality of the steel.

The entire time they were out of stock on what they called their Combat Classics (Trail Master, Recon Scout, Laredo, Natchez, and Kuhkri's). Imagine all of the lost sales and revenue combined with the effects that Covid must have had on manufacturing and shipping! No wonder Lynn Thompson decided to get out when he did. The stress must have been unbrearable.
 
IaccidentlyCutmyThumb said:
I appreciate the response Chris, and I have known many businesses who have had issues with sourcing from China as well. I would like to point out, however, that the SK-5 issues were prevalent prior to the GSM acquisition. I know it's heresy to say on a CS sub-forum, but this is not GSM's fault. Whether it increases or decreases under their purview, who knows? Only time will tell. This thread may go a while before I update it with findings, because I'm very busy right now, but once I get a little time I'm very interested in testing some of the SK-5 blades I have.
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I wasn't clear, sorry.

My point is this: if Cold Steel has had this many problems despite trying to do it right, what should we expect from a company like GSM that doesn't even know what doing it right looks like? Given everything I have seen and heard I doubt anyone at GSM even knows what SK5 is, let alone how it stacks up with other steels or metals.

And to anyone who suggests that cutting corners to save a few dollars isn't worth it, I would remind them that GSM no longer includes the left hand pocket clips -- a savings that is probably measured in pennies. Nor could they be bothered to hire someone who knows anything about knives to answer their customer service line-- or to represent their products on youtube.

In my opinion of course.
 
Man with no name said:
I wonder why Cold Steel didn't just stick with the O-1 tool steel that they were already using prior to the announcement of A-2, which was supposed to be an upgrade? It was over two years before they (Cold Steel not GSM) came forward and told us that the promised A-2 knives would not be available due to the inconsistent quality of the steel.

The entire time they were out of stock on what they called their Combat Classics (Trail Master, Recon Scout, Laredo, Natchez, and Kuhkri's). Imagine all of the lost sales and revenue combined with the effects that Covid must have had on manufacturing and shipping! No wonder Lynn Thompson decided to get out when he did. The stress must have been unbrearable.
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I was waiting for an A2 Trailmaster that entire time.

I would love a Trailmaster in 3V, I even have had one on preorder for may e a year now I guess, but I am no longer sure. I have no confidence that I won't t get ripped off. For the prices they are asking it damn well should be the greatest 3V on the planet, but I have my doubts.
 
Chris_Texas said:
I was waiting for an A2 Trailmaster that entire time.

I would love a Trailmaster in 3V, I even have had one on preorder for may e a year now I guess, but I am no longer sure. I have no
fit confidence that I won't t get ripped off. For the prices they are asking it damn well should be the greatest 3V on the planet, but I have my doubts.
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I have a 3v..its not bad. sheath sucked and didnt fit it, but I just got a leather one made and solved that issue. so far seems decent steel wise .
 
Some forum members have already purchased the 3V Recon Scout. They all seem to be very happy with them. Shop around and you can find a deal from time to time.

CS37RS_1.jpg
 
Chris_Texas said:
I wasn't clear, sorry.

My point is this: if Cold Steel has had this many problems despite trying to do it right, what should we expect from a company like GSM that doesn't even know what doing it right looks like? Given everything I have seen and heard I doubt anyone at GSM even knows what SK5 is, let alone how it stacks up with other steels or metals.

And to anyone who suggests that cutting corners to save a few dollars isn't worth it, I would remind them that GSM no longer includes the left hand pocket clips -- a savings that is probably measured in pennies. Nor could they be bothered to hire someone who knows anything about knives to answer their customer service line-- or to represent their products on youtube.

In my opinion of course.
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Oh I knew what you were saying Chris, I was just saying I don't know that Cold Steel was trying to make it right prior to their acquisition. When I say I don't know, I mean it literally, not in an accusatory way...I have no idea what was happening behind the scenes. And I personally really like the 1080 series so I really wanted the CS "SK-5" to be well, SK-5.

It certainly seems that GSM is cutting corners on a few models. I haven't seen a QC change, although the new Bushmen that don't have a welded full tang annoy me. Plus they're made in China.

Then again, it seems GSM's CS is embracing 3V, so that makes me happy.
 
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