Comparing the Dog Father and Battle Mistress

silverdragon33 said:
there's also the issue of hidden tang vs exposed. the dogfather is lighter but has more forward weight
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don't hammer on the back of the dogfathers handle for any reason, and avoid batoning on it whenever possible. I've split the resiprene-c and bent the tube fastener doing that.

money, and handle material. if you can't afford a bm or an m9, if you don't like the exposed tang increasing vibration, if you need a handle that helps reduce the amount of cold transfered to your hand, then they dogfather is awesome.

I can't speak directly for the cgfbm, but I can speak for the hogcgfsh, ffbm, fbmle, and nmfbm, and any of them>dogfather.

the entire reciprene-c line is great, but for the same reason I would choose a battle mistress over an basic 9, i'd choose any of the full tang busse's over scrap yard.
 
I've batoned the crap out of my res-C handles and never had an issue. As long as you keep the strikes away from the lanyard hole, you should be fine, and if you DO split it in the field, it's not that hard to fashion a makeshift handle until you can get back to civilization and send it back to the Yard for replacement.
 
Last Visible Canary said:
don't hammer on the back of the dogfathers handle for any reason, and avoid batoning on it whenever possible. I've split the resiprene-c and bent the tube fastener doing that.
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LVC,

I think your post might be misleading to someone who doesn't have any Res-C and trying to learn about it - especially the above quoted part where you say "Avoid batoning on it whenever possible" and you mention how "you" split your Res-C, bending fasteners, etc.

Sure, I think it is wise to NOT "Directly" hit the Res-C with a baton while battoning. The Res-C cannot withstand "direct" beatings very well. However, the "Blade" of a Dogfather or Battler Rat (SR-77 or SR-101) is VERY well suited and capable of being batoned and the handle will hold up FINE if beating on the blade and not the handle.
Further, the hidden tangs are VERY durable!!! I have NEVER seen a hidden tang from Busse and kin fail yet. :thumbup:

But, I personally never hit ANY of my handles when batoning - even if micarta. :confused:

So, if not directly hitting the Res-C, the Res-C handled knives baton VERY WELL!!! I have battoned Res-C knives and I KNOW many other Res-C knives have been HEAVILY batoned with no problems to the Res-C.... But, this is batoning without directly hitting the Res-C. ;)


*** Side note - just adding some general info to those who don't know here: I will mention a "Slight" disclaimer about batoning differentially heat treated SR-101 such as on the Battle Rat, Camp Tramps, M9LE (Waki's) and similar. "Most" should know to baton with a piece of wood, stick or similar. But, I have seen some people baton with hammers, spines of other knives and similar "HARDENED" pieces of steel - which is BAD for any knife. But, the differentially heat treated SR-101 spines are softer to aid in toughness. The softer spine will dent much easier than normal knife steel if beaten with a hard steel baton. Similarly, spine whacking a differentially heat treated blade will ding up your spine much easier.... for those not clear on how differential heat treatments work.... might want to get more clear.



Back to Res-C handles: Maybe I am mis-understanding something, but I have NEVER witnessed a post showing a Res-C handle fail from batoning that only included beating the blade.
But, yeah, I have seen Res-C beat up and destroyed from being directly beaten on.




Last Visible Canary said:
....... for the same reason I would choose a battle mistress over an basic 9, i'd choose any of the full tang busse's over scrap yard.
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There are personal considerations here. But, you reference "tang" here and "seem" to specifically "imply" that the Busse full tangs are better (stronger ????) than Scrap Yard hidden tangs..... ????

While in most cases for most knife-makers, a full tang knife is inherintly stronger than a hidden tang knife. However, it appears quite obvious there is a point that a tang can just be "sufficiently" strong. Consider that I have NEVER seen a Busse and kin "hidden tang" fail from either Swamp Rat or Scrap Yard. Even Noss's crazy destruction test on the Scrap Yard S6 didn't break it's tang.
I have seen other rare failures inlcuding two tip breaks ons SR-101 and bubbles in SR-77, but never tang failure.

So, is a full tang "More" durable. Sure, but does it matter? No - not in the case for Bussekin hidden tangs since they never seem to break! So, NO real world advantage in having a full tang - just more weight. ;)

And hidden tang "durability" should NOT be in question IMO. The "relevant" difference is in weight, feel, looks and handling. A hidden tang Res-C handle is a LOT lighter in the handle and over-all weight - commonly about 4 ounces lighter or so compared to similar full tang/micarta handles. This weight difference in the handle make a huge weight distribution difference - making the Res-C/hidden tang knives much more blade heavy (or more accurately = handle light!) For chopping, this seems ideal. But, in the end, the reality is that MORE mass still can aid in chopping, but also fatigue if doing lots of chopping. So, they are different. The Res-C handles over a better power/weight ratio IMO and better comfort for long term chopping. And the lighter knives are more nimble.

But, the micarta (or G10) knives offer more mass which can equal more power and quicker fatigue. Also, the micarta and G10 is arguably "Nicer" aesthetically vs. the very utilitarian looks of Res-C.



Last Visible Canary said:
.... hogcgfsh, ffbm, fbmle, and nmfbm > dogfather.
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Not so fast there Sparky!

While I "do" tend to agree with this on "most" levels (Battle Mistress series and some Steel Hearts are "Greater" than the DF), my reasons for declaring the Busse choppers to be greater than the DF are mostly based on INFI being a LOT better all-around steel. And nicer visually and aesthetically.

Based on "Toughness" alone, INFI and SR-77 are VERY comparable. Both offer EXTREME toughness and more than sufficiently tough (SR-101 is plenty tough for my needs!).
But, INFI holds a MUCH better edge and is significantly more corrosion resistant than SR-77. (except when INFI comes with DECARB-AGE! :thumbdn: :barf: - then INFI surface rusts like CRAZY fast and easy! :mad: :thumbdn:)

But, for pure utilitarian uses - such as chopping - the DF (And Battle Rat) have significant advantages in weight which makes them easier to carry. And Res-C handles have comfort advantages - IMO.

Personally, I like the feel and balance of the Res-C choppers - especially in "use".

But, the mighty BM's have an "Awe" (drool) factor when holding in hand - akin to holding the hammer of the gods or whatever = higher gawk factor. And their higher weight/mass does offer more powerful chops. But, higher weight has it's downsides.


So, which is better or "Greater"? I would argue that it depends on your perspective and preferences.

.
 
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Liu Kang said:
What are you going to do with a BM in NYC? Are there even anything to chop there? lol
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pizza cutter :D

Nahh - actually we spend a lot of our weekends and summer at our place in the Catskills - headed up there later today to work my budding infi stockpile :)

Edit: well, DDF is officially paid for - now the wait begins :yawn:
 
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Both are excellent choppers. The FBM is easier to use because of its extra mass, but using the DF with the proper form it will almost chop as fast.

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as true as it is said, the crafe for Mistresses is abnormal!

i love my NM FBM, but i still would love a FBM and a FFBM with the BLK/TAN G10
 
I really think the Dogfather is the poor man's straight handled BM, as is the Basic 9, but the Dogfather is even cheaper still!
 
Hey fellas, I don't mean to hi-jack the thread but what is decarbage and how in gods name do I avoid it?! I have never heard of such a problem with INFI, and I want to avoid it at all costs. Any enlightenment would be much appreciated.
 
let me rephrase:
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don't hammer on reciprene-c because you will split it. because it is made of rubber, which splits under severe crushing pressure.

I'm not trying to mislead anyone - you should never hammer a rubber handle, unless it's hardened plastic that's impact resistant: which isn't rubber. Micarta will chip if you do full heavy shoulder swings with a mallet - before that the tube fasteners will sheer. I can fix sheered tube fasteners with bolts and stand offs a lot easier and with better results than I can fix split reciprene-c.

I'm not saying it's weak - its strong as hell.
I'm not saying it'll split the second you start batoning it - if you use a medium weight baton it'll take many sessions before damage starts to appear
I'm not saying you shouldn't buy it - it's cheap, warm in cold weather, vibration reducing and resistant to most impacts and abrasion

I AM saying that you should treat it like what it is, hard rubber. You can't do to reciprene c what you can do to micarta, micarta is way harder and able to take much heavy impacts before failure.


before "wtf were you using a knife to dig a hole for?": that root defied every other tool we had including pick axes, concrete breakers and sharpened shovels.
 
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DWRW said:
Back to Res-C handles: Maybe I am mis-understanding something, but I have NEVER witnessed a post showing a Res-C handle fail from batoning that only included beating the blade.
But, yeah, I have seen Res-C beat up and destroyed from being directly beaten on.
.
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I could make the handle out of porcelin, and as long as it has a shock dampening rubber sleeve to keep the vibration transfer to a minimum it won't fail from batoning on the blade. I'm having a hard time phrasing a rebuttle to your statement, because not stressing a material not causing it to break is self explanatory.
 
snwbrdr202 said:
Hey fellas, I don't mean to hi-jack the thread but what is decarbage and how in gods name do I avoid it?! I have never heard of such a problem with INFI, and I want to avoid it at all costs. Any enlightenment would be much appreciated.
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The three Competetition Finish knives from Blade 08 (Hell Razor, SARSquatch, Jack Hammer) were an experiment by Busse in lower cost models. The steel did not get much (any?) grinding after the heat treat. That surface, the outer layer of steel, suffered decarburization in the HT process, making the surface much more prone to rust than we had come to expect form INFI.
 
resinguy said:
The three Competetition Finish knives from Blade 08 (Hell Razor, SARSquatch, Jack Hammer) were an experiment by Busse in lower cost models. The steel did not get much (any?) grinding after the heat treat. That surface, the outer layer of steel, suffered decarburization in the HT process, making the surface much more prone to rust than we had come to expect form INFI.
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"Decarburization" is a term where hydrogen reacts with the carbon and carbide particles on the surface of the steel, leaching them away from the surface. the layer of scale produced is high in carbon and very likely to rust. sometimes this can be the cause of why knives need to be sharpened once or twice before they have the edge performance you want them too, because the edge has had some of it's carbon leached out of it until you get into slightly deeper metal.

I have no idea what the "decarb finish" is on knives like the internal affair
x11_ia_decarb.jpg
.

I'd think the decarb finish would be extremely prone to rust and never let out of the shop, so maybe it's something other then what I think it is?:confused:
 
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