Comparison of real large Sebenza 21 vs. new version of fake(with many pics)

[mcraft]

I am new to the higher end precision knife world, and my first ability to purchase one of my own was only about 1 month or so ago. In the meantime, given my budget and priorities with making sure my family and all of our bills (aminly medical lately ) are paid for came first, so it has been a long time coming. Anyway, in my efforts to save money but still own one of these fantastic folders was the used market, and as such I spent a lot of time on eBay, Amazon Market, and other outlets looking for a used, but like new Sebenza. Given how much even used ones cost (a testement to their quality and desirability I suppose), I was quite leery of spending my heard earned money on a fake, so I studied (and drooled ) on literally thousands of pics of Sebenza's until I could pick out a fake in <30 seconds and move on, given I have never seen one in person. I recently saw what looked to be a near perfect replication (given the pics that were displayed, once i received the parts they did NOT photograph make it a dead give away) of a large Sebenza on Amazon for $60 (but they were clear in the add that it was not real, although they "stole" the trademark markings, rather it was marketed as a "fan made edition", whatever). I decided to purchase it (and please don't lambast me for supporting the fake goods market, it will thrive without my one purchase, and in this case I am posting this to help other newbies not to have to go through the lengths I did to be able to identify a fake, so if anything I am trying to help reduce possibilities of others unknowning purchasing fakes (many of which I have seen on eBay claiming they were real and asking near retail price). This is not as good as some of those fakes I saw, but it was pretty close. For those of you that know Sebenza, the differences will be obvious, especially in the pics where both are together, but for newbie (who I can represent because I am one) they would NOT be because a newbie may not know every detail of a real Sebenza. THe names of the pics speak for them selves, and here are some of the dead give away differences I saw. On a side note, the sheath I got with tke fake one is nice, seems like real, high quality supple leather with an extremely soft suede interior.

• Star torx vs hex for the top fasteners
• Blank vs hex fasteners on the bottom
• IDAHO MADE missing
• Luster (fine sparkles) in the titanium handle missing on the fake), and titanium is ligher on fake as well
• Gimping on blade for fake is worthless, where it is more pronounces and grippy on the real one
• When blade closed, the real one sits alot deaper between the slabs
• THe bevel on the real one is perfectly even right to the precision tip, not so on the fake where the angle of the dbevel changes, and the tip is not nearly as precise
• WHen closed the centering on the fake was lightly off, on the real one, perfect
• The thumbstud on the fake is a mm or two narroer, and it is not conically machined, rather it is a bunch of flat cylinders stacked on top of one another, hard to explain, hopefully the pics demonstrate what I mean
• The top of the fake one is stone washed, the top of the real one is polished
• The clip on the real one is countersunk and obviously made of the same titanium, the fake one is NOT countersunk, and is clearly made of something other than whatver the slabs are made of on the fake one
• The lockup surfaces on the back of the blade on the fake vs. the real are completely different
• The hollow grind surface on the fake one terminates a few MM before the handle on the fake, where the hollow grind ont he real one terminates slightly UNDER the slabs
• the front of the slabs ont he real one have a much more gradual bevel, where the fake one the bevel is at the same ange on the front as on the rear
• I could keep going, there are several over difference as well, I will let the pics do the rest of the talking

 

[HughesTMH]

Deleted

 

[roughneckrob]

Buying one is wrong but they are not going away. If everyone in America stopped buying fakes it won't make a difference because how many Chinese are buying these? A lot, all of them and thats more fake knives being sold than there are real ones. Until everyone can afford the real thing than the counterfeit market will forever flourish and there are far more poor people than there are middle class or rich.

 

[mcraft]

Delete

 

[Biginboca]

Your desicion to buy it does keep the fake market alive. If everyone stopped buying then they would go away entirely. Yes, one man makes a difference. If someone steals and gets away with it it doesn't make it any more right. I just spent 2500.00 for a crk prototype. One of the reasons it was so expensive was that Mr Reeve had to do all that work by hand. Anyone with knowledge of new machine tools, CNC, Okuma tools and the like can counterfeit one easily. However, they are stealing the intellectual property of someone else. It is theft and wrong.

Thanks for the tips what to look for, but buying one is as wrong as can be!

Now if his post helps a hundred others not unknowingly buy a fake then it does prove helpful.

I would wager that many more fakes are sold misrepresented as genuine than those sold as fake and purchased knowingly as a fake.

It's a crime to make these for sure, but for someone to unknowingly buy one at a high price because it's misrepresented as genuine is an even bigger crime in my opinion. So I applaud the op for putting this together, it helps to protect noobs from making a costly mistake.

 

[roughneckrob]

That fake does look like crap in comparison. The op should do a destruction vid with it now that the comparison has been made.

 

[mcraft]

Buying one is wrong but they are not going away. If everyone in America stopped buying fakes it won't make a difference because how many Chinese are buying these? A lot, all of them and thats more fake knives being sold than there are real ones. Until everyone can afford the real thing than the counterfeit market will forever flourish and there are far more poor people than there are middle class or rich.

As someone who has been to the PI, China, Malaysia, and several places in Europe (and even some places in the states, NYC in particular), I can vouch for this, there are market places where EVERYTHING is fake, from clothes to purses, watches to cars, you name it. The unfortunate thing IMO is that the people buying those fakes (whether they can afford the real thing or not) will probably never get to own and appreciate the real thing, which is a real shame. When I got the Sebenza (the real one), I spent probably 4 hours admiring it. I am an engineer by education and career, and before that was a ASE certified mechanic at a Toy dealership, and then served 4 years in the Nuke Navy as a Nuclear Electrician. I am a car nut(once a collector, before I had two kids ), a firearm collector, A/V and home theater enthusiast, and now becoming a knife collector. Basically I am drawn to anything where the engineering is a major factor in the product, and I am especially drawn to the subset of whatever where the extra effort has been put towards engineering to make it as near to perfection as possible and with as few compromises made as possible, where the finished product performs admirably, where both form AND function are extraordinary, and where a new "trail" has been blazed. I deeply appreciate simplicity in design that is in fact genius, where that simplicity in and of itself took a very creative mind to engineer a simple design that functions with such perfection. That to me is Sebenza. And for the many out there either knowingly or unknowingly purchasing fakes that are NOT Sebenza... well, they are missing out, and that just sucks .

 

[Hans17]

Your desicion to buy it does keep the fake market alive. If everyone stopped buying then they would go away entirely. Yes, one man makes a difference. If someone steals and gets away with it it doesn't make it any more right. I just spent 2500.00 for a crk prototype. One of the reasons it was so expensive was that Mr Reeve had to do all that work by hand. Anyone with knowledge of new machine tools, CNC, Okuma tools and the like can counterfeit one easily. However, they are stealing the intellectual property of someone else. It is theft and wrong.

Thanks for the tips what to look for, but buying one is as wrong as can be!

The "fake market" is a nice way for those who can't afford the real deal to have something similar. And if they end up loving the clone enough to buy the real deal they can save up for it. We all can agree that CRKs are luxury knives. They are much more than that but I would say they are in the category of luxary and not everyone can have a Lambo, or at least a certain part in their life they might not be able to afford but later on down the road.

I compare it to piracy. Sometimes people download something to try it out and if they like it enough to support the maker/producer/programmer etc. they purchase the real deal. It doesn't make it any less legal but it does in my opinion equalize the ethics of the decision to purchase a fake.

 

[mcraft]

That fake does look like crap in comparison. The op should do a destruction vid with it now that the comparison has been made.

I have one or two more plans, but then I may do just that! First is to show it around to my friends at work (both of them actually, very few at work know what Sebenza is), and second to make a YouTube video comparison where I can show the OTHER things that suck with the fake... the opening and the lockup being the biggest. My last YouTube vid may indeed be my destruction of the knife, although according to the maker, it does have titanium slabs and a D2 steel blade. At first thought I have several firearms and thought about shooting it, but shooting it would be incredibly dangerous given possible richochet, so I suppose the best I can do is put it in a vise and go at it with a small sledge, while wearing protective gear from head to toe, which still may not help avoid my being injured, and I really don't have protective gear like that anymore. Lets say that these slabs are either stainless or really are titanium... what do you think the safest way would be for me to destroy it? Note, I am now a civilian, and do not have access to explosives, although I do know how to make them. Perhaps I can make a sparkler grenade (which if done right can be extremely effective), tape the blade to it, and enclose both in one of my Vietnam era steel ammo boxes (with ventilation drilled everywhere so that the ammo box doesn't explode)? Any other ideas?

 

[jdm61]

Just so we have the complete picture, a LOT of the counterfeit goods made in China are made for domestic consumption with the tacit approval of the Chinese government. I have heard it described as kind of a "bread and circuses" deal where the Chinese middle class can buy cool fake stuff on their salaries and it keeps them distracted. Of course, the people who make these counterfeit good see no reason for them to restrict their activities to China and they sell all over the world, including selling some pretty dangerous stuff like counterfeit prescription drugs. Recently, the Chinese government shit down 22 fake Apple Stores in Southern China, but only after the BBC had reported them. The scam was so convincing that a number of the young people working in the stores actually thought that they were working for Apple. No word as to whether the products, many of which apparently were real Apple products, were gray market re-imports or had been "sourced" directly from Apple suppliers in China.

 

[BladeChick777]

I think this post was a great idea.
It helps the newbie's(like myself) tell the difference and helps us be aware of what we may be buying(I know the difference but others, especially young kids like the teens on this site may not).
I applaud the OP for thinking of this and posting it. His purchase is not going to help the fake market thrive(they don't need us, they're already thriving). I think it was good of him to pay the $60 to get the fake so he could help others. That's a $60 he's lost out on, but it can help other people from losing out on $100's.

Thanks MCraft!

 

[dinokay]

Knowledge is Power, Thank You for the Post.

 

[mcraft]

Just so we have the complete picture, a LOT of the counterfeit goods made in China are made for domestic consumption with the tacit approval of the Chinese government. I have heard it described as kind of a "bread and circuses" deal where the Chinese middle class can buy cool fake stuff on their salaries and it keeps them distracted. Of course, the people who make these counterfeit good see no reason for them to restrict their activities to China and they sell all over the world, including selling some pretty dangerous stuff like counterfeit prescription drugs.

WOAH, now THAT sucks. While in Mexico and a few other places in South America, Canada, etc. I did see that the ratio of prescription to OTC is quite different, but from my perspective in a good way, I think that the US is WAY to restrictive on what must be purchased via prescription. One example, low level antibiotics. I have heard the argument that antibiotics should be controlled because overuse causes the acceleration of bacteria producing antibiotic resistant strains. I would believe that if antibiotics were indeed controlled, but scripts for them are given out like candy, both in patient and out patient (I have been in healthcare for the last 10 years so know a bit about this). So IMO that reason is a load of crap, rather it is to ensure that all of the "components" of US healthcare can get their cut for darn near everything sold(insurance companies, claim processing companies, physicians, subrogation companies, and on and on). To give another example, prescriptions being required for glasses/contacts. I mean come on, if my prescription hasn't changed, which takes two seconds nowadays to validate with the machines they have available, I shouldn't have to have a complete eye examination, etc., etc. to get a prescription to buy a new pair of glasses because my old ones broke and it has been >12 months since my last exam. The company I have worked for, 10 years now, has one mission(same one since they started in 1979), to transform healthcare, and make it possible to remove all of the middle men that have driven up the cost of healthcare to the degree that it has been in the US (one of the other drivers is malpractice suits and crazy cost of malpractice insurance, where our solutions and processes help hospitals to prevent human error, which over time will allow for malpractice insurance carriers to give discounts to those that use tools to prevent death due to human error, just like the discount on your homeowners insurance if you have monitored security and fire systems in your home). If you knew how much money 3rd parties make from healthcare that add no value (rather actually introduce more friction), it would make you sick, believe me.

What I never considered though was that the drugs were counterfeit. THAT is scary, and I would hope that ANY government, whether they choose to respect copyright, patent, and trademark law or not would at least control that aspect of the market to protect their populace from the truly unscrupulous.

 

[mcraft]

For those of you that just posted thanking me, thank you for taking the time to do so . It did take me some time (and $) to do this, but the appreciation makes it all worth it, so thank you too . One thought that would probably be even more helpful is for someone that really knows these knives to post every detail about their construction from an appearance perspective, construction perspective, and any other information that would be helpful for a newbie to be able to read one thread (a stickie) and know what to look for when checking to see if what they are about to buy (or perhaps what they just bought) is real. If purchased(or listed) on Amazon, eBay, or most US sites, assuming said person were to come across the thread, then they could either be prevented from purchasing one and notify the sites to remove the listing protecting others, or if already purchased, get their $ back with the help of those sites.

 

[dwcliff]

Moderators....I'm thinking this info should be considered for a sticky

 

[Hans17]

Moderators....I'm thinking this info should be considered for a sticky

I agree, and I've got 3 seb clones on the way that I will do the same with and add to the topic.

P.S. Mcraft email me back! my f5 key is getting worn out.

 

[mcraft]

Moderators....I'm thinking this info should be considered for a sticky

If that is the case, I can certainly reconstruct my post to be more complete with better formatting and annotations for each photo pointing out what to look for (on a large 21 anyway), and link to the YT vid once I post it, and integrate any other info from everyone else to help enrich the post. In the interest of time, I wrote my observations out fairly quickly, and skipped quite a few, but could definitely finish by adding many more data points (including some from other fakes that I have seen, and could continue to update the thread with the pics of the fakes with their "general location", not enough for someone who WANTS to buy one would be able to find it, but one who was looking to buy that particular one would know.

 

[mcraft]

I agree, and I've got 3 seb clones on the way that I will do the same with and add to the topic.

P.S. Mcraft email me back! my f5 key is getting worn out.

LOL, my bad, every time I responded to this one there was a new post, and I am also working right now too (on my laptop sitting right next to my desktop where I am posting from, hospitals never close... so nor does my job ). Will go check my email and get back to you, my apologies for wearing out your F5 key .

 

[HughesTMH]

Deleted

 

[1SHOT1KILL]

&#8226;Luster (fine sparkles) in the titanium handle missing on the fake), and titanium is ligher on fake as well

As a side note...that lighter color can be attributed to bead blasting the scales. I bead blast most of my CRK folders and they go from the color of your real Sebenza to the color of your fake Sebenza. The difference comes from the choice of the blasting media as well as the pressure used to spray it.