Compass

You might want to check this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352064&highlight=Recta

I finally got the Recta DS 56 (Recta is a Swiss company with a large reputation over here - they share most of the market with Silva) and I like it very much. Sighting is very comfortable, the global needle works well and is dampened by a fluid that does not develop bubbles at 3000m (testet this last summer - well I was at 2965m).
In the US the Silva Expedition 25 TDCL might be easier to buy.
I use it for teaching orientation skills in the alps and for map/terrain-orientation. for my speleo-tours I use a Recta DP65 as it has kind of a matchbox-format and is close to unbreakable.
Andreas
 
Lots of interesting posts here. Few questions for the experts (from what I've seen that's everyone here except me :D):

1. What do you guys think of the usefulness of the Brunton 8099 Eclipse & 8099P Eclipse compasses for mountain trail hiking where one of the objectives would be to make a good record of the route hiked?

2. Would Brunton (Nexus, original Silva) 15 TDCL be sufficient for that purpose? (I would like to have a clinometer, hence CL).

3. Does the bubble level make a big difference (15 TDCL-L & 8099P)? Does it make a difference with a clinometer?

4. Are those clinometers really any good? I have not used one before, but I think I would find this feature quite useful (see item 1 above) if it is decent.

5. How many of you use built-in compasses in GPS devices? Do you find them an acceptable substitute? I bought one some years ago, but even in semi-forrested areas couldn't get a decent lock and found it utterly useless. However, the technology may have improved since then.

All replies will be greatly appreciated.
 
jamesraykenney said:
Calling that compass 'junk' is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard...:(
Calling it 'inappropriate' for wilderness TRAVEL, is something else...:D
It is designed for MAPING not navigation...
Try using a baseplate compass to MAKE a map sometime if you want to experience frustration!
Though it is perfectly capable of being used for navigation...
Baseplate compasses are a NEW invention...
I learned how to use a compass with the K&E version of their previous generation of that same compass...
A baseplate compass is a CONVENCE, not a necessity...
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That a fact?

If you need a compass for true map navigation and went on the advice of this thread and bought that compass only to realize you cant use it with a map it is "JUNK" worse than junk its a paper weight. I dont care if it cost a million if its for the wrong purpose its junk.

Want to survey a highway its sounds like a great piece of kit but this thread is about navigation in the outdoors.

I have seen antique map navigation compasses from the 30's so I guess thats new :rolleyes:

A baseplate compass is the correct tool and does it a 1000 times better than any $400 engineering compass. Hell, you can navigate with a 10lb brass sextant or a magnetized sewing needle but that doesnt make it the right tool for the job.

Skam
 
My opinion (for what its worth):

1. As I said earlier, my favorite compass is my Brunton Eclipse 8099, which is what I do most of the time (I get bearings from my GPS instead of from my maps). I find it MUCH easier to site bearings that with my Brunton 15TDCL even though the mirror is smaller.

As for making a good record of the route hiked, I would say that any decent orienteering compass can be used to draw bearing lines on a map, though the 8099 has more accuracy than most due to the magnifying lens on the bezel(maybe more accurate than a typical person's drawing ability). Of course collecting waypoints using a GPS can do this more easily and probably more accurately. I am not a fan of keeping a GPS powered on during the entire hike - it wastes battery life and I generally don't need to capture my route with that kind of resolution. I simply stop once in a while, turn on the GPS, and capture a waypoint of interest. Later I upload those waypoints to the computer and convert them to a route. For me that is usually good enough.

2. The 15TDCL is certainly sufficient. Personally I'd rather have the 8099 than the 15TDCL and think the cost difference is worth it.

3. I don't see any advantage to the bubble level, but maybe I'm missing something (mine doesn't have the bubble). The compass needle points correctly without the compass exactly on-level. The clinometers don't really need the compass base to be exactly level.

4. The 8099 actually has three different clinometers - one rough one using the case lid and a scale on the hinge, one using a card beind the capsule for fast reading, and a more highly accurate one that is similar to the 15TDCL that uses the mirror and the compass bezel markings. They have different accuracies. The last one mentioned is very accurate. Your measure of goodness may be different from mine, but they certainly serve their purpose.

5. I specifically avoid buying GPS' with built-in compasses. I don't need them. They such battery power (though they can be turned off), are much less accurate than a good compass, they can't be used with paper maps, and they are subject to the durability of the device's batteries.

By the way, just a few weeks ago I purchased a Garmin Geko 201 to suppliment my Garmin GPS III+, figuring it is a pretty basic GPS that is so tiny it is very easy to carry along. On the trail, my primary use of the GPS is to get current location and to get bearings/distance to waypoints (destinations). I was very careful to get a GPS that can communicate with my PC so that I can use ExpertGPS (expertgps.com) to manage my waypoints and routes.
 
Well, I dug out my Brunton Pocket transit with the attendant booklet (patent July 20th, 1926) and according to the manufacturer, it is intended for the following: "preliminary surveying on the surface or underground, for taking topography, for geological field work, and for reconnaisance."
 
Skammer said "If you need a compass for true map navigation and went on the advice of this thread and bought that compass only to realize you cant use it with a map it is "JUNK" worse than junk its a paper weight. I dont care if it cost a million if its for the wrong purpose its junk."

Skammer, I was going to bowel out of this topic and your assertions (again) are simply not true. ANY compass can be used for navigation-base plate or not. The fact is using a Brunton pocket transit for hiking or as you would phrase it "navigation" is simply overkill, but what you say is totally wrong.

If I had to choose one compass in a SHTF situation, it would be a Brunton Pocket Transit due to it's many uses. If I was going on a hike, I wouldn't take it along. This is not a question of saying something that retails for $400 is the perfect choice for "navigation". The price is irrelevant. I sort of like the Konus. The Ranger is a good compass too.
 
kenk said:
By the way, just a few weeks ago I purchased a Garmin Geko 201 to suppliment my Garmin GPS III+, [...] On the trail, my primary use of the GPS is to get current location and to get bearings/distance to waypoints (destinations).
Click to expand...
kenk, thanks for all your comments. I was curious, have you ever used a GPS-built-in altimeter (in GPSes other than the two you currently own, which I do not believe have altimeters)? If you have, were those altimeters reliable?
 
hwyhobo said:
kenk, thanks for all your comments. I was curious, have you ever used a GPS-built-in altimeter (in GPSes other than the two you currently own, which I do not believe have altimeters)? If you have, were those altimeters reliable?
Click to expand...

The fellow that I do weekend bicycle rides with (40 miles and longer) uses a Garmin GPS bicycle computer that provides, among other things, altimeter readings. Based on spot-checking the altimeter log against the GPS co-ordinates on a topo map, I'd say it gives pretty accurate readings. "Good enough" comes to mind. "Spot-on accurate" may be even be a good description, although I don't know how to check it's numbers to a high enough degree of accuracy that I could make this claim.

We usually climb a total of 2,000 - 4,000 feet on our rides, so the question is more than academic to me.
 
All GPS's give altitude measurements based upon position in "space", but that is known to be only moderately accurate, especially in relation to a true pressure-based altimeter that comes on some GPS's (usually paired with an electronic compass). I myself have never used one though, living in the flatlands of northern Illinois.

Garmin's site says that the Geko 301's barometric altimeter is accurate to 10 feet if the unit is properly calibrated.
 
Years ago I used the big mechanical altimeters. They are quite difficult to use accurately as you need to set the altitude at a known base station, travel to the location to do your measurements, take the measurements, travel back to the base station to check the reading then adjust for temperature and other factors.... most difficult to do accurately. This has always made me wonder about the accuracy of the electronic altimeters. I guess it is a question of the accuracy that is needed. Hiking is one thing, but surveying is another. I always felt that if I was within 50 vertical feet elevation (altitude) in the mountains I was doing good, and 20 feet vertical in the lowlands. Usually you just end up with questions and a range of altitudes which you compare to the USGS topo contour lines.
 
I used to live in the Appalachian foothills region & found that my Garmin eTrex and alot other peoples GPS units did not function well in the forest because of all the trees, foliage, and valleys. I think there is very little the GPS manufacturers can do about this; they are working with line of site radio signals and tiny antennas.
The electronic compass watches I have tried (Timex and Suunto) give inconsistent (& inaccurate) readings unless they are held almost perfectly level, and this is not easy to do on the go. The Suunto Vector now has a bubble level because of this. For this reason I would be wary of the readings from an electronic compass in a GPS or any other reasonably priced device.
 
I don't have any need for altimeter readings from my Magellan GPS, except in an academic sense.
Comparing the GPS height readings to a known point on a map seem to give consistent figures within 20 feet.
Has anyone here ever compared GPS generated height readings from an aircraft with the onboard altimeter? How accurate?

(slightly O/T, sorry, not intended to hijack)
 
22-rimfire said:
Skammer said "If you need a compass for true map navigation and went on the advice of this thread and bought that compass only to realize you cant use it with a map it is "JUNK" worse than junk its a paper weight. I dont care if it cost a million if its for the wrong purpose its junk."

Skammer, I was going to bowel out of this topic and your assertions (again) are simply not true. ANY compass can be used for navigation-base plate or not. The fact is using a Brunton pocket transit for hiking or as you would phrase it "navigation" is simply overkill, but what you say is totally wrong.

.
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You took me out of context. When I said "you can't use it" for navigation I meant you personally couldn't use it because its VERY difficult to use a non baseplated compass for mapwork. A I teach multiple map and compass courses a year I can attest to this fact with first hand witness to the struggles students have with it.

Give the same students a good basplate compass and the learning light turns on very quickly. Its all about the clear baseplate and straight edges to line up your direction of travels. Not easily done without a baseplate on a grid map unless you have a protractor.

Its no secret that preferred compasses for all forms of travel by serious navigators is with a baseplate compass and even more specific the Silva Ranger.

Skam
 
Skammer, I know you know what you're talking about. I really don't mean to be argumentative. It was the junk and paper weight part that kind of stuck. Funny thing is I always take a protractor with me base plate or not compass. The protractor helps me visualize and allows my brain to work with bearings rather than just drawing a line on a map from the compass. I know the Silva Ranger is a great compass and it is easier to use for many tasks.

What on earth did people do before the modern base plate compasses were made?
 
22-rimfire said:
Skammer, I know you know what you're talking about. I really don't mean to be argumentative. It was the junk and paper weight part that kind of stuck. Funny thing is I always take a protractor with me base plate or not compass. The protractor helps me visualize and allows my brain to work with bearings rather than just drawing a line on a map from the compass. I know the Silva Ranger is a great compass and it is easier to use for many tasks.

What on earth did people do before the modern base plate compasses were made?
Click to expand...

They navigated without modern baseplate compasses. I have a pocket compass (German) used by a great-great grandfather to travel across the great plains in the 1870's. I know he made it to where he was going.
 
Garrison Kieler wrote that Lake Woebegone was founded by German pioneers who were lost, but to stubborn to admit it.
They just said:
"We're Here."
:D ;) :D
 
Remember maps were not to the standards that we have learned to accept as the norm. I believe the first 1:24000 topos were constructed during the time that the Great Smokey Mt National Park acreage was being assembled from private property. There is a book about the civil war that has some great maps in it which cover most of the US. The civil war era maps were really quite good overall.
 
Thomas Linton said:
They navigated without modern baseplate compasses. I have a pocket compass (German) used by a great-great grandfather to travel across the great plains in the 1870's. I know he made it to where he was going.
Click to expand...


Its interesting this comes up Thomas as looooong before the compass came to be native peoples had to have a natural sense of direction and used multiple sense to determine direction.

They of course lived in the environment full time and it was second nature to use "natural navigation" to get around. I try to incorporate some of this logic when teaching and get them to to put the compass down and think out side the magnetized box so to speak. In this day and age of GPS its not easy to do with the Xbox generation.

Skam
 
Well I'm the guy that started the post so I thought I'd let you know how things went on the hike. The trail was somewhat obscure and the land fairly flat and wooded with the entire hike being about 15 miles. I had a map and I took along a marbles compass. The little brass one, yep that's the one. As I said I was in navigation in the Navy and was fairly used to finding my way. I used my watch and the movement of the sun most of the time to tell North, (had to adjust for daylight savings time) and checked my map about every 30 min or so to make sure the surroundings and the topo fit. About every couple of hours I'd whip out the Marbles and just make sure. The course was in a large sort of oval and I took my time. I was just walking to get away for a while and to be outdoors. I had plenty of water, food and all the goodies to make sure I didn't die and could protect myself from dinosaurs and politicians while being out in the open. I also knew If I walked due east for about 7 or 8 miles I would hit a road that would eventually lead to a 7-11. Everyone knew where I would be and when I left and when I would be back. but now that I think of it I'm not sure they would come looking for me anyway. heheh. thanks guys this was interesting and I learned alot about all the cool compasses out there and If I ever want to build a road or how high above the ocean I was. I figured since my feet were dry I was ok. Thanks fellas It was good.
xbxb
 
xbxb said:
. . .
I also knew If I walked due east for about 7 or 8 miles I would hit a road that would eventually lead to a 7-11.

xbxb
Click to expand...

Always good to establish a linear boundary feature.
 
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