Competition among makers?

[Kevin Jones]

It's very surprising to me that there's so little competition between custom knife makers.
(by competition, I'm referring to a personal sense of competition among themselves, not so much in that there not being competition in the industry as a whole)

In fact, I've never seen an industry where competing individuals help one another so much even to the point of one training another to perhaps take business away. Quite admirable and unselfish IMO.

This training and especially the sharing of information has progressed the industry by increasing the quality and artistry of custom knives, and perhaps given more new makers the opportunity to become successful makers.
Some may question if this has also hurt the industry in helping to sustain too many new makers, negatively affecting the maker/collector ratio thus the primary and after markets.

We all love the many “in progress” threads we see on forums that share great detail on very difficult processes/techniques. Some even make it seem that anyone with the means to acquire tools/equipment could become a successful knifemaker.

I believe it would be interesting to hear from makers, potential makers and collectors as to your views and opinions on maker training and the sharing of information? Or if you feel there is in fact competition among makers.

• Do makers generally charge for this mentoring/instruction of new makers?

• The ABS’s primary purpose is for the training of makers of the forged knife. Do we need more such organizations say for stockremoval knives?

• New and potential makers; have you considered contacting established makers to get mentoring? Would you expect to or be willing to pay?

As always, thank you in advance for your participation, views and opinions.

 

[Will Leavitt]

Neat question Kevin, I'm short on time and can't quite give this the time I think it deserves but I'll fire away with the first things that come to mind.

I contacted my mentor, Dale Baxter, and had to convince him of my dedication to the craft before the time I spent in his shop. He's been burned before by "students" and in the years following I have too. I spend a lot of time working with Charlie Edmonson and it's really helped energize me. I teach to honor Dale, Feigh Brown and others that have spent their time and energy to pass knowledge on to me. I teach because it makes me relearn things and to make sure my techniques are correct.

Payment, I kind of follow old guild principles regarding charging for lessons. I'm not a journeyman so I do not charge for anything, journeymen generally take trade for time but can accept payment for stuff like fuel and consumables, masters are expected to charge for their time, that's what I was taught, I've traded out labor for lessons and I've been known to leave money in ashtrays of vehicles but I wouldn't insult someone that refused money by demanding they accept it.

Competition in a craft is a weird thing, it's soooooo personal. The style of knife I make doesn't appeal to everyone and that's fine with me. When someone orders a style I don't do or feel like doing, I refer them to someone I trust. At my level I think that there's so many makers doing similar priced and styled blades, I compete by giving a little more than expected and providing the best customer service I can. Makers drop out or make errors that are hard to recover from all the time. I'll keep treading water, improve my skills and advance.

Sorry but I don't care if they have a stock removal group similar to the ABS, we still do stock removal as bladesmiths. I can teach someone to do stock removal, there's just less steel on the floor or in the slump bucket.

I remember making knives after reading a couple of books on the subject (mid 90s), I had a charcoal forge made out of a trash barbeque grill, a sledge hammer in a 5 gallon bucket of concrete, a 2x21 belt sander in a vise on my bench, a handful of files and a lot of sandpaper. I made and sold knives off of that mess for 2 years before buying a multi-tool and getting an anvil shaped object. I educate makers to spare them the time I spent in the lower pits of knife hell.

I agree that the WIPs and stuff in the maker's forums seems like anyone can make a knife. Anyone CAN make a knife but there's a lot of pain and anguish between the dream and that first blade, some people won't pay that price. Like I often say, we should be called knife finishers, a lot of people start making their first knife, few finish it and even fewer make a second blade. Heck, people ask to come over all the time, few ever show up, fewer ever come back a second time.

My main complaint about the internet is that most people are lazy, they don't put the slightest bit of work into understanding anything about making a knife before they ask questions. Come over to the maker's area and see the daily threads piling up about mower blades and other beginner questions that are answered in the FREAKING STICKY AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE SAYING 'NEWBS READ THIS!!! GOOD INFORMATION HERE!!!!". That's why we get excited when someone shows up and asks an intelligent question that shows they at least read the stickies.

Lastly, I think Bill Moran said he helps makers because 90% won't follow through and the other 10% would figure it out and he's saving them some time.

 

[Kevin Cross]

Great Question.....

Most of my education on knife making has come from books, articles, videos, stickies, talking with makers at shows and making lots and lots of mistakes. I have a standing offer from a fantastic maker here on the forum (Lousharp) but I can never seem to break free to get over to his shop. That being said I have had a couple of makers who are even more "newbie" than me over at my place and I love sharing my limited knowledge with them. If I can save them a few cuts and burns, I'm happy to help.

As for competition, I'm not so sure we really compete. If a customer orders a knife from us, the customer has already taken the competition out of it, they have selected the maker and have their own desires for the design. If we are working on one of our own designs then our artistic differences will set us apart. If we choose to do a "standard" like maybe a Loveless droppoint blade with a micarta handle then as Will has pointed out it comes down to service and going the extra mile.

Compensation--I routinely pay for advanced training in my day job so why wouldn"t I do it to rise to a higher lever of expertise of knifemaking? As far as being paid to teach, I do not feel my skills are comnsurate with fees at this time. Actually I really enjoy teaching and sharing knowledge so I am happy to share what I know and honored that someone might actually want to...

Finally, I really don't see custom makers as the competing part of this industry. The competing part is composed of the large industrial makers (ie Case, Kersaw, Buck, CRKT, etc.) They compete for probably 98-99% of all knife sales (my estimate), just like GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda and Toyota sell the majority of cars. Custom makers are the ones who make the knives that are more precise, cooler, sharper, more unique, made to a higher standard (IMHO) just like a Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, etc.

We make the art, the toys that make them feel better.

 

[RogerP]

I agree that the WIPs and stuff in the maker's forums seems like anyone can make a knife. Anyone CAN make a knife but there's a lot of pain and anguish between the dream and that first blade, some people won't pay that price.

:thumbup:

Roger

 

[george tichbourne]

Things can go downhill fast in any community where the members begin seriously competing with one another but in our community I think that the average age of the knifemakers prevents juvenile contests.

Most of us are at least 40 years old and realize that competition can lead to aggravation and we (I ) definitely have had my fill of that so I try to be a friend to everone I meet.

Yes I do charge for one on one lessons but I also invite anyone who is interested in knives as makers, collectors, users,and so on over to the shop every other Tuesday night for free coffee and conversation. This is my way of giving back to the community and socializing with like minded individuals.

George

 

[Keith Montgomery]

If I actually wanted to learn how to make knives, I would expect to pay for the knowledge and training I would receive. I know that many makers include basic lessons as part of hammer-in. A great many makers pass on all the knowledge they have for no charge, but I would hope that they would charge for actual lessons in knifemaking.

If I wanted to learn how to make knives I would contact makers that whose work I liked to see if they gave lessons. Most makers don't have the time, inclination or patience to be able to train others. It is only a small percentage that are really good at it. I would want to learn from someone that was a very good teacher, and would expect to pay for the time I took up.

 

[Tom Krein]

If we help the industry grow and become better, we all win.

I have always felt that what goes around comes around. None of it is rocket science...

With that said I compete fiercely with my fellow knifemakers, but in a slightly different way! I make every knife the best I can, with the best materials and hopefully a design that is usable and recognizable. I think most of us do this.

I guess I have a LOT of respect for most of my fellow makers. I can see what they have done and know what it took to do it. I think many knifemakers build higher than the customer would demand, partly because of pride in craftsmanship and peer approval.

Just my thoughts.... good post!

Tom

 

[midnight flyer]

If we help the industry grow and become better, we all win.

I have always felt that what goes around comes around. None of it is rocket science...

With that said I compete fiercely with my fellow knifemakers, but in a slightly different way! I make every knife the best I can, with the best materials and hopefully a design that is usable and recognizable. I think most of us do this.

I guess I have a LOT of respect for most of my fellow makers. I can see what they have done and know what it took to do it. I think many knifemakers build higher than the customer would demand, partly because of pride in craftsmanship and peer approval.

Just my thoughts.... good post!

Tom

I am a professional carpenter that specializes in high end cabinetry, custom trim work, finishing and some woodturning. I get paid for my efforts, and get paid to teach. I have been doing this for myself, supporting myself with my efforts for almost 30 years.

Many here have other jobs, and many here seem to have their area of expertise here in knifemaking. Unless they are dedicated professionals in other crafts as well, I don't know if they can appreciate your thoughts to the full extent of their gravity.

I was not going to comment on this thread until I read your post.

I don't think you (I don't think because I don't know you!) understand how universal and profoundly true your statement was. It is true across all trades, crafts and anyone serious about learning all they can about a chosen subject.

When we lose the ability to learn from one another, our own capabilities become lost. When the crafts become closed up, tight knit and elitist, everyone loses.

Here is a good example of that statement. I used to teach woodturning as a founding member of our local club - free. I wanted to promote the craft, art and the fun of of woodturning. But as the skills of the students grew, they became "artists" and "dedicated professional" and generally got to the point where no one wanted to be around them. As a result, our woodturning club became embroiled in snitty little comments, petty competitions and back biting. Our meetings went from "hey - let me show you how to do that!" to "wellll.... you gotta turn for a few years before you tackle that sombitch" while giving a wink to his buddies.

In about a year, our club shrank and fell apart. We went from about 75 people to about 12. The older guys all left (I'm only 52) because they wouldn't put up with the bullshit, and the younger guys felt crowded out by the "artists" that mainly only talked among themselves since the new guys "wouldn't understand". Now all that combined knowledge is lost from the old members as well as the great camaraderie they brought to the meetings.

I look at it this way. When I am teaching cabinet finishing, I tell the guys: Good finishing takes a little time, patience, attention and a tiny bit of investment. I can teach a monkey how to do cabinet finishing that will satisfy 95% of the people. But GREAT finishing takes practice, perseverance, dedication and and open mind to learn. In my estimation, to be a great cabinet finisher, it takes about 5 - 7 years or so. To be really great, there is no time table. There is too much to know, too many aspects of it all, and too many products to learn.

But anyone that buys a can of Minwax can put on finish (draw your own parallel in knife making), and I will even help them do it. I like to help folks. After all, I didn't get where I am alone, either.

As life long knife guy and hunter, I have met a lot of knife makers through the years. I have to say the that ones that frequent this forum are just about the best of the lot.

Your thoughts hold true across the trades or crafts, no matter what they are. GREAT post. :thumbup::thumbup:

Robert

 

[Will Leavitt]

Tom summed up a lot of what I was trying to convery rather poorly. We respect each other and that drives us. To be totally honest, I'm more afraid to show other makers my work than collectors and users, while I know that a poor review by a collector will hurt my sales, being panned by my peers would devastate me.

 

[irbailey]

From what I've seen on this forum and others is that knifemakers are very helpful when it comes to sharing.
I, like many others no doubt, started making knives as a serious hobby (borderline obsession!) after reading David Boye's book. After this I read every other book I could find, and of course found things out the hard way! Without the likes of David Boye, Wayne Goddard, Richard Barney & RW Loveless sharing their knowledge in these books, my learning curve would have been a lot steeper.
When I finally got a computer and started looking at various knife forums, I learnt even more, and am still learning.
It amazed me when I asked my first question on here and recieved an answer from some very well known makers that I didn't think would give me the time of day. I've also recieved emails from a couple of well known makers, and things like this give a novice like myself a massive boost of confidence.
Admittedly I'm certainly no threat to their sales!!
After doing a work in progress on Britishblades a while back, I recieved several emails from people in the UK new to knifemaking asking how to do certain things. I am always more than happy to help if I can, as this kind of follows on from the help others have given/still give me.
It seems that knifemaking is one area of modern life that still has some old fashioned values where people still have respect for one and other.
This is one of the many reasons I love it

Ian

 

[Trace Rinaldi]

For me anyway, most of my best friends are incredible knifemakers.. Its hard to be in competition with your best friends. You sure wouldnt be friends for long if it were that way...

 

[Sam Salvati]

A sense of competition, I think is not even possible in knifemaking . You can have two different makers make the same knife, but both will be worlds different.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Thanks for your thought provoking responses which should be inspirational for new makers.
It would be interesting to hear from makers as to who (if anyone) inspired and/or taught and helped you?

 

[Erik Fritz]

Thanks for your thought provoking responses which should be inspirational for new makers.
It would be interesting to hear from makers as to who (if anyone) inspired and/or taught and helped you?

Well for me it was Bill Bagwell who came up to my shop and helped me build my first blade from forgeing to final fit and finish. He spent a week with me to get me started. Since then I have spent time with Wade Colter, Shane Taylor, Bill Burke and Most of the Montana guys. But i think a big nod of appreciation goes to Josh Smith for starting the Big Sky Conference. I can tell you that by doing this and the quality presenters that he has brought in has taken 5-10 years or more off my learning curve.

 

[Will Leavitt]

Besides the countless internet gurus, the writers, I count Feigh Brown and Dale Baxter as my main teachers, with Dale being the foremost.

Inspirational? sheeshhhhh the server isn't large enough

 

[Lorien]

I'm not a knife maker, but I am making a knife or two.

The one thing that I noticed is that most every knife maker who I've talked to, who've given me advice and encouragement, since starting my own little project asked whether I'd do more of this kind of work in the future. I'm like, "Hell yeah- I'm hooked!", I don't ever want to stop! Upon answering in the affirmative, I seem to get even more support for what I'm trying to do.

So, that totally goes counter to the idea of competition in my case at any rate, and shows that people dedicated to the craft of making knives will always be able to find a place in the community of craftsman. I got a full time job, and who knows? Maybe I'll continue making knives so I can get to the point of counting on it for income, (rhetorically speaking of course- that'll be the day!)

I think that making things like knives can be lonely work, which causes those who do it to reach out to like minded folks for support and friendship. I think that there will always be room for friendly competition, but at its heart competition is all about moving the bigger picture forward and I believe that knife makers are extra savvy about that.

 

[Will Leavitt]

See, I want to get people all trained and advanced so I can keep selling my poor attempts at blades. If I can make them really good they won't compete with me anymore

 

[Tom Krein]

I have had many VERY good mentors over the years. I feel that I will let them down if I do not do my best work and offer a better value to my customers.

By standing on the shoulders of GIANTS I can see farther...

My first mentor and the one I owe the most to is Bob Dozier. He took a gamble on me and hired me to work for him. I worked for him for over 3 years. Bob took me in and treated me almost like a son. I worked hard for Bob over those 3 plus years, and he taught me to make knives as only he can. It was like getting a masters degree in knifemakeing! I owe a huge debt of gratitude to Bob.

I think worked for A.G.Russell. I learned a good bit from working for A.G. and Goldie and appreciate their conifidence in my ability and work ethic.

Since then I have had the pleasure of being considered a friend AND peer to great makers like Trace Rinaldi, Lucas Burnley, Charles Marlow, Michael Burch, Kit Carson, Bob Terazula, Tom Maringer, and the list could literally go on for a LONG time. We often talk shop and share information and techinques in an attempt to make the work better and quicker. This shop talk helps us all! It is a two way street... maybe today I can help you make a sheath better or faster and tomorrow you can help me straighten my plunges.

I look around me at my peers and truely think this must be the golden hour for knifemaking as so many of us are friends willing to help in any way our fellow makers. It makes me proud to be in the "industry"!

If you have any doubt of this take a look at the shop talk area on pretty much ANY of the forums. Often you will see "big name" makers answering questions and taking part. What other industry do you see this in??

Tom

 

[Hmathews]

I guess my partner/brother, Charlie, would be the mentor I look to the most. He being a trained gunsmith/machinist is a big help along with his incredible amount of skill with hand tools and a willingness to push me to do things I never thought I could. His consistent comment of "It will look pretty good when you get through" has made me take a second look at what a finished knife should look like and refuse to do anything other than the best I can.

I don't have any other knife makers that I have depended on for help or answers other than the odd question here and there. But then nearly all the knife makers I know have helped me in one way or another. People like Jim Small, Wayne Hensley, Jim Ragsdale, Carl Rechsteiner, Rade Hawkins, Warren Glover, and Master sheath maker Sandy Morrissey have all helped in their own way, whether they knew it or not. And many others too. It was people Like A. G. Russell who provided the knife porn and more custom knives through the years than I want to admit and Chubby Hueske whose style I admired and personal approach to dealing with customers we ought to all adopt, that kept my interest in the making of custom knives alive until I could afford to do it.

We have two approaches in our shop to helping other makers that were developed by a response I got from another maker one time that was rude and short. There are good examples out there and bad. In this case it was the bad that caused us to make a conscious decision to help anyone we could that was interested in making custom knives.

The first way is to provide constructive, helpful and courteous criticism any time we are asked, and never treat anything we do as a "trade secret". We welcome makers to our shop with their work and one of us, or both, will spend as much time as we can with the individual during their visit. This we don't charge for as long as the time is limited to a couple of hours or so.

The second way is to offer a three day weekend crammed with knife making lessons. You can stay in our cabin next to the shop and eat what we have or go out. From when you arrive on Friday until you leave on Sunday you will get all the knife making you can stand. We ask the person doing this if they want to leave with a knife on Sunday or do they want to leave with the knowledge of how to make a knife. If you want to watch us build you a knife, that will be expensive. If you want to learn the skills necessary to build a knife, it is more reasonable.

In this part of our state there just weren't many makers we could call on and we figured out a lot of things about knife making the hard way. Charlie and I both feel that the more we encourage other makers the faster this business will grow and the more success we all will share. One thing I have found through the years whether it was in knife making or other businesses is that by teaching you also learn. It forces you to understand why you do what you do, not just how to do it and we all benefit from that experience.

 

[Mike Carter Custom Knives]

I got started in knifemaking by taking a week-long class offered by Gil Hibben. He does charge for the classes which will usually have 3-5 students. I think that is a fair practice since he is basically stopping his own production for a week to teach a class. In my opinion it was some of the bst money I ever spent. After I got started Gil has always been available and willing to help me as I needed without charge.

Since I started I found countless knifemakers who were very willing to offer free advice and help. It is a unique and great quality about the knifemaking community.

The Knifemakers Guild is a great organization for stock removers as well as forgers. One of the main purposes of the Guild is mentoring. There are also numerous local clubs that can be a great resource for knifemakers.

As for competition, I think we are all in good natured competition. Not so much for the sales but in trying to be as good or better than the next guy. I know when I lay my knives on a table at a show along with the likes of some the big-name knifemakers it certainly pushes me to keep making them better to compete with the others in quality and craftsmanship. If the guy next to me sells a knife and I don't it doesn't bother me. It just means that I have to try harder to make a knife a customer prefers.