Competition Cutting with a Busse? What is the best choice?

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Here is a FFBM (or was) that I did some work on a year or so ago. It doesn't fit the requirements, but would be a cutter. It is .285" at the handle, but .247" at the blade spine with a full convex grind. It is 16.25" from tip to butt. It has the rubber horse mat handle material like the Cutting Comp. knives, I still haven't tried it out yet though. :eek:


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PeterPHWS said:
We have over here a fledgling BladesportUK organisation which is affiliated to the US Bladesport. I am thinking of giving this a go and have been looking at what knives I have which I could use....at least initially.

The rules are simple...no more than a 10 inch blade...2 inches wide...and the knife needs to be 15 inches over all.
So the choices really boil down to the Basic 9 or a FSH...with a FSH how thin have people taken down their edges to? By this I mean the angle inclusive. The steel should be at around 56-58 Rc so any experience on this side of things would be welcome as well. I normally go for around 20 degrees either side or 40 degrees inclusive on an edge...basically working off what Spyderco suggest is an optimum angle for mixed use and what they use on their Sharpmaker. What I find a bit staggering is that the competition knives are...if the figures are correct...progressing down from a 3/8th spine to 16-17 thou at the edge on thickness of blade and being convexed. Using trig maths this gives a 10-11 degree "inclusive" edge...which allowing for things like scalpels being sharpened for a 17 degree inclusive edge...makes you aware how far off the pace you are with a 40 degree inclusive edge.

But I don't want to ruin my knife...so how acute would it be sensible to take a sharpening angle to? I am thinking 36 degrees inclusive would be about as far as you could sensibly go? Again....anyone with any experience on this...please chime in.:thumbup:
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Is the cutting competition going to be similar to what they do here? Hard dowels, hanging ropes, delicate cutting, chopping 2x4's, etc?

If so, then I don't think INFI would be the way to go. The knives used by most of the competitors are ground really thin, I think it was calculated less than 10 deg. A while back, there was a poster who showed a Busse that was thinned out to 20 deg (there was some heated discussion on that), and Jerry chimed in and stated very emphatically that 20 deg was WAY too thin for INFI. I'm sure I could find that thread.

Based on that, you'll be outchopped hands down. A thick edge such as the asymmetrical one won't be able to compete with a thin one, just a matter of geometry. Some of the videos show competitors chopping through 2x4's in 6 strokes.

Jerry's tests, IIRC, are cutting rope for several thousand cuts and showing that there is still an edge, which is much different than the competitions that are done here. Yours may be different.

PS - Edited. The angle of the other knife was 20 deg.
 
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Yes I must admit I cannot argue with the geometry point....and the only thing I cannot easily fathom is how they are getting a 10 degree knife to work like that...as I said above...scalpels are usually ground to 17 degrees inclusive...so it is quite eye opening that some have an edge at 10 degrees...those squared off cleaver shaped comp knives must be like a straight razor on steroids??

What suprises me is the thinness...if you consider that the Japanese were working on swords for nearly 1000 years...with hamaguru edges able to slice silk floating down over them...and none of those edges were anything like 10 degrees....albeit this was forged steel...not powdered metalurgy which they have today...it does make you wonder whether the 10 degree edge is actually the best...but allowing for physics and dynamics whereby the least resistance to a cut the better... I have to accept a 10 degree edge must be the best option.
 
Ran---NICE Busse you have there. I'd put money on that blade!
Peter---Is that Japanese "silk" story a myth?
 
PeterPHWS said:
Yes I must admit I cannot argue with the geometry point....and the only thing I cannot easily fathom is how they are getting a 10 degree knife to work like that...as I said above...scalpels are usually ground to 17 degrees inclusive...so it is quite eye opening that some have an edge at 10 degrees...those squared off cleaver shaped comp knives must be like a straight razor on steroids??

What suprises me is the thinness...if you consider that the Japanese were working on swords for nearly 1000 years...with hamaguru edges able to slice silk floating down over them...and none of those edges were anything like 10 degrees....albeit this was forged steel...not powdered metalurgy which they have today...it does make you wonder whether the 10 degree edge is actually the best...but allowing for physics and dynamics whereby the least resistance to a cut the better... I have to accept a 10 degree edge must be the best option.
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I spoke with one of the guys from Blade Sports yesterday and he stated that their edges are approx. 18-20 degrees prior to sharpening.

Edge thickness is only a small part of the entire package. Don't forget that we cut 12 pieces of bundled 1" hemp rope with a SHBM. The SHBM only has approx. 6 1/2" of straight edge!!!! The curved front sweep does little for cutting the bundled rope as it tends to roll past the sweep after impact. That is why you are seeing a lot of Santoku style blades in these competitions. My design from nearly 10 years ago has no choil, and features a flat ground, recurved blade with a heavy hollow ground bevel relief with a chopped tip. The design and build is great for a competition blade but not great for much else!. If it were beefed up a bit, it would make for a very good bush knife.:thumbup:

Jerry :thumbup:
 
Thanks Jerry! Did you find your comp knife?
As you know, I'm sniffing around for a Busse chopper. :thumbup:
 
Lycosa said:
Thanks Jerry! Did you find your comp knife?
As you know, I'm sniffing around for a Busse chopper. :thumbup:
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Yep.. . . . I found it yesterday in my old shop. . . . If I can remember to take my camera with me today, then pics will be forthcoming. . . . :thumbup:

It is ugly!!!!!. . . . in a cool kinda way. . . .

Jerry :D




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Peter,

Before you modify one of your knives, make sure it will be approved for use. Blade Sports has some rules regarding "mass produced" blades (including a definition of same) over here, and I'm guessing Blade Sports UK has 'em too.

I looked into it last year, and found that they require "testing".... which we all know "Uncle Gerry's" knives can pass before morning coffee. Said testing requires submittal of samples etc. Now, a custom (also defined by Blade Sports) knife is good to go.

Before Blade Sports came into existence, cutting competitions were held by the American Bladesmith Society (ABS), hence the exclusion of stock removal blades and (I think) a requirement that the cutter had to have made the knife. With the creation of Blade Sports, it is possible to use a "mass produced" blade you bought for the purpose.

FWIW, my competition cutters are "self made" (A-2 steel) by stock removal and I sharpen them at about 27 deg on an Edge Pro. Just finishing 2 new ones for the season with 3/8" spines :eek:! Last year's blade was from 1/4" stock, and while it was definitely much lighter and "faster", I found that for most of the events, a bit more mass would be helpful.
 
I would dearly love to see a Busse knife in the competition.

By someone with the drive and the technique. After talking with the competitors at the Blade 09 competition, it's pretty obvious that technique is as important as the right blade geometry.;)

Other than Jerry's own competition design (anxiously awaiting that pic!), I'd love to hear which current design Jerry thinks might be best.

I would've thought SHBM or HHFSH or Basic 9 ... now I'm not so sure.
 
Yes I thought 10 degrees was too thin....20 to 27 degrees is what I would have expected...more towards the 27 degrees than the 20 allowing for the torque on chopping 2x4's.

Lycosa the cutting of floating silk is not a myth...but it's not like the scene from The Bodyguard...you dont just let it drift over the edge...it is down to timing and an upward pull cut on the silk...very fast and very brief...almost a "flick"...

Jerry and Oku....Thanks for the edge information ...:thumbup:
 
None of the current competition knives uses a recurved edge, it works against you in some of the chopping events when you are chopping down against a surface.

I handled a few competition-type (ie not necessarily current models) knives at Blade this year, and noticed that they had a double distal taper. The fattest part of the knife was out at the sweet spot, and then it tapered both to the tip and back through the handle. Another older one by Jerry Lairson had something inside the handle. He described it as a tuning fork, and if you hit off of the sweet spot you could feel it resonate, but was dead when you did hit the sweet spot. My understanding was that it worked as a sensor of sorts, to signal the cutter that he was using the optimal part of the edge.

My general impression of the state of the art in cutting knives is that they are to a camp knife what a race car is to a street car. The knives may have started years ago as all purpose knives, but are now specialized tools for a single purpose. In a thread on the Custom forum a maker mentioned that the edge on the M4 blades work hardens with repeated impacts, and so (I assumed) need to be retired after a time. (or can they be run through a heat treat again?)
 
I spoke to one of the premier makers Gayle Bradley and he said that the edge if distorted but not damaged...usually form torque on a chopping stroke that was a bit off... can be annealed and straightened and then re-hardened. He has done this on his practise knife after loaning it out.

I would love to try one of these and compare them to say my FBM....which aside from the rear pommel is very close to specification....not as thick in the spine but close...the knife by Randucci above which is an excellent spec for chopping would be even better having been a FFBM and now being fully convexed would be my preference on the way to go with a Busse...with his skills taking the pommel down to the grip so it came in at 15 inches would be a cracking way to kick off with a Busse....:thumbup:
 
sodak said:
Is the cutting competition going to be similar to what they do here? Hard dowels, hanging ropes, delicate cutting, chopping 2x4's, etc?

If so, then I don't think INFI would be the way to go. The knives used by most of the competitors are ground really thin, I think it was calculated less than 10 deg. A while back, there was a poster who showed a Busse that was thinned out to 20 deg (there was some heated discussion on that), and Jerry chimed in and stated very emphatically that 20 deg was WAY too thin for INFI. I'm sure I could find that thread.

Based on that, you'll be outchopped hands down. A thick edge such as the asymmetrical one won't be able to compete with a thin one, just a matter of geometry. Some of the videos show competitors chopping through 2x4's in 6 strokes.

Jerry's tests, IIRC, are cutting rope for several thousand cuts and showing that there is still an edge, which is much different than the competitions that are done here. Yours may be different.

PS - Edited. The angle of the other knife was 20 deg.
Click to expand...

i believe in that debate he was breaking up concreate block . which that degree isn't for. in those type of comps the don't break anything near that hardness
 
Here's an oldy but a goody! This thing is a killer, free-hanging rope cutting machine!! :eek:

We just chopped up over 20 2x4s with this puppy and it is still shaving sharp. It has a very, very fine edge. It is, however, not the optimal design for chopping 2x4s. Beef did get in a couple at under 5 seconds while I couldn't seem to get under the 8 second mark with it. It should be noted however, that my 48 second chopping time will live in infamy as I had to stop in the middle to drink a beer before finishing!!! :thumbup:

Fun stuff! :thumbup:

Jerry :D

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