Concept for a VERY special Khukuri

[Jim March]

I'm getting near to ordering a Khukuri. What I want is something light and fast in the hand in the 20" range...Sirupati type heft if not lighter. I'd want an exposed notch versus the "fully enclosed circle" we've seen lately on some.

Aaaaand...one other detail, one that might be just too much like heresy but...I want to bounce the concept around:

Make the outermost 5" or so double-edged.

"Ohhh hell, Jim's cracked up guys!"

No, seriously, there is ONE key thing a Khukuri can't do in a fight: the "Bowie Back-cut". See also some of Keating's writings and/or videos, or the extensive info Bill Bagwell has on his site. The more I think about it, the more I think this may be the recipe for THE top fighting knife of all time.

Uncle, don't bounce this off of the Kamis just yet, let's thrash this out a bit here. The #1 problem I can see is in the differencial temper but the back edge shouldn't need to be drawn to the same hardness as the forward edge. And obviously it STILL isn't going to have the wood-chopping toughness of an equivelent single-edge so if that creates a warrantee issue, that's perfectly understandable.

But as a fighter...DAMN. You've just increased the hard-target stabbing ability by a quantum leap, you've added the back-cut...ohhhh heck ya.

Comments?

Jim March

 

[JeffPaulsen]

Hmm. That starts to get into short sword country... I think I would just get a 20" scramasax to start from if I wanted a double-edged high-penetration monster.


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Namaste,
Jeff Paulsen

 

[Jim March]

Well...yes, but there's two major advantages to the Khukuri:

Chopping power, and "grip feel and handling". I've briefly handled a 15" Ang Khola which is a hefty puppy, and the mass is "balanced and controlled" in wonderful fashion. I've never heard of a sword that comes close and I've handled a few.

Remember too that "20 inch" isn't blade length, it's overall. There'll be 6" at least of grip...this is still barely within the realm of concealment or better yet, my "grip exposed but the full totality of the blade concealed" type tip-up Kydex sheath design.

I think street-carry isn't quite out of the question, not for somebody my size.

Jim March

 

[Yvsa]

:
That is one heck of a concept Jim!!

I think a 20" Sirupati forge fullered out well for most of the length and then forge the last 5"-6" into the double edge.That part of the blade could be a little thicker in the center to accomodate the strength.

Perhaps a little lift,not much,just a little to the point to help make it a little quicker in the thrust?

I believe that the Kamis could harden the upper edge to the same as the lower if you desired it.Especially with thier technique.

Then perhaps a little crosshatching
on a horn handle since it won't be a chopper.Just enough to make the grip a little more stable due to nervous sweaty palms,not enough to feel harsh.

I like it.

Wasn't something like this done one time on a smaller scale knife?
If only my memory were better.

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>>>>---¥vsa---->®
The civilized man sleeps behind locked doors in the city while the naked savage sleeps (with a knife) in a open hut in the jungle.

 

[Jim March]

Just guessing here, but the overall heft won't be too different from the 15" Ang Khola I handled? On that piece, the handle was dead smooth (horn) except for the "rings" in mid-grip that prevent a "forward slide" onto the blade during a stab.

That grip felt *perfect*, to me. The "slickness in the vertical chopping direction" felt like it gave more power on smashes? If so, that's exactly the grip I'd want.

I think I see where you're getting at as far as the double-edge portion being "fatter", I think you're suggesting "pounding down the spine" somewhat? That sounds like a plan. I don't think shifting the tip upwards to further benefit stabs is necessary...in normal form a Sirupati *can* still stab, adding the second edge will boost that ability by a good percentage. See, I'm a little bit concerned about tip strength - if the Kamis are doing the most common type of differencial temper they're leaving the tip a bit softer, and the spine softer yet. With the double edge, they'll try and harden the spine-side edge area more than they usually do, that's going to "throw their pattern off" so I think we want as simple a tip structure as still possible to avoid throwing too many new variables into the pot?

Let's not make it TOO hard for the poor dudes!

This is at least going to be a fun thread...but it'd make for an even better knife unless there's a tech (or tradition?) problem we're not seeing yet. And if there is a prob, somebody please sing out!

Jim March

 

[Rusty]

Jim, my rule of thumb is 1" (+/-)=1oz.

Less is more ( couldn't resist ). I have a 17" OAL village chainpuri weighing 14 ozs. And a 20" HI Chainpuri that sounds awful close to what you want.

I think you need to play for a while with a khuk and let it program your reflexes before you go and make any big changes. Because of the bent blade, a little twist at the handle means a big change in angle at the sharp edge.

Give me an email and we can work out a loan of a khuk or two for long enough to let the spirit of the blade start to work on you. Then you'll have an idea of which way to go.

PS: far as stabbing ability, you needn't thrust with a khuk. Just punch as hard as you can. By some coincidence, the point's in line to make it the world's longest push dagger.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 26 August 1999).]

 

[Jim March]

Right, I realize about the pushdagger part...that's the main reason I don't think the tip position should be screwed with.

Hmmmm. I'm loath to do a loaner because of my neigborhood, the idea of possible theft in the UPS path on somebody else's piece scares the crap out of me. And I've handled lots of cheapos and now one HI.

Maybe I should explain what a back-cut is. Say you're right-handed. You angle to your right and smash hard to either the back of the guy's head or angle up under the arm aiming for the artery in behind the bicep. Using the *spine* is better...that way, the inside of your elbow is moving towards the opponent. If he tries to block, instead of stopping your arm dead in it's tracks you fold the elbow and the point/back edge is still coming right at him! If he manages to duck under the back-edge swing, you'll end up with your elbow folded and the MAIN cutting edge positioned right at his throat as you swing back out on the recoil.

But it's unlikely to come to that, because the initial hit comes "out of his blind side".

Granted, you can do a similar attack with your wrist flipped over BUT a block to that arm stops your momentum completely.

If that didn't make any sense, go see Bill Bagwell's website. Do a search for his name and his main knife, the Hell's Belle.

In any case, this is the trick a normal Khukuri can't pull.

Jim March

 

[JeffPaulsen]

Ahh... a wrap shot. With a broadsword or short sword you can also take the back of the leg, or pretty much anywhere in the back of the torso / head. If you are significantly taller than yr opponent you can even come right over the top.

Works great with the khukuri if you hold it backward so that the spine is facing yr opponent. I think I know what seems wrong about the whole thing - the khukuri is bent to chop forwards, and no amount of sharpening the back edge will make the back edge an equally good chopper. Thinking about it that way, and thinking about slicing instead of chopping with the back, it makes more sense.

A friend of mine is welding up some flanged maces - about 2 ft long, five triangular flanges, each about 3/8" thick and 3" each side. They have one heck of an intimidation factor, and can be used to open 55 gal. steel drums with almost no effort. A wrap shot works great with these because there is no concept of edge - no matter how it hits, there's a flange. Scary but good.

Namaste,
Jeff Paulsen


[This message has been edited by JeffPaulsen (edited 27 August 1999).]

 

[Jim March]

"Wrap shot" is as good a description as any. This particular variant is almost always done "high line". Back of the neck or low to the rear skull are the prime targets, arm is a backup plan.

In theory you could indeed flip the whole thing in your hand but #1 that takes too long and #2, if you miss and end up with the blade in front of his head you can't "lash outwards" with a cutting edge.

Most versions of this start with a "fake to the outside", making the opponent lose track of the blade as it apparantly misses his left arm and heads "harmlessly off into left field". But then you move in that direction slowing down his retaliation shot with his right hand, and you bring the blade "backwards out of nowhere". Not only is this one hell of a potent shot, your footwork slides you out and away from his blade at the same time.

But if the blade is edge towards HIM as it "heads off into space", he's gonna get wise that it's still a threat and either jump out or worse, do a "duck and spin" number.

Note1: look out for southpaws!

Note2: REALLY look out for a second blade in his left hand, especially hidden in the reverse grip. He'll plant it in your chest before you can finish the sequence. In this case, One option is to work to his left at longer range, use that huge reach to smash that arm/wrist/hand all to heck before closing the range on that side and doing the backcut. In all cases you're still moving away from the (usually) longer more potent blade in his right. And that's a GOOD thing!

Jim March

 

[Rusty]

I don't leave home without mine ( flanged mace ) behind the seat.

 

[Bill Martino]

Good news, Jim. Do your design work here. Agree on a final configuration. Send me a drawing. I'll get it to shop 2 in Nepal. We have a ME (mechanical engineer) working on a consulting basis. He will interpret the drawing and explain it to the kamis, most of whom cannot read or write, let alone read a blueprint. We will make a single prototype or perhaps two to specs. Examine it, test it, if it works pay for it -- probably $175 to $200. If it doesn't work send it back and we will sell it off. If it is really good we will make an offering and make more if there is interest.

Uncle Bill

 

[JeffPaulsen]

Rusty where did you get your mace, or did you make it yourself? How does it measure? Do you ever carry it, and if so how?

It never occured to me that other people prefer a mace for that sort of thing, and I'm curious.


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Namaste,
Jeff Paulsen

 

[Rusty]

Jeff, long ago ordered a Templar Sword, Saxon Axe head, and Flanged Mace head made by CAS Iberia, the PP models made in the Philipines.
Sword had NO temper, Axe the same, and mace it didn't matter too much. I at least will not order anything from CAS-I again.

Museum Replicas Ltd. isn't great quality, but head and shoulders above CAS-I. MRL 58" 2 handed sword needs several hours work to clean up, but will be worth it. Have Marto sword-rapier am satisfied with, but their Claymore is wall hanger, has handling qualities of 4x4 of same length. Del Tin hand and a half, expensive and worth every cent. Will never settle for less again.

The Flanged Mace? Like I said, it rides behind the seat of my truck. I don't leave home without it.

 

[JeffPaulsen]

I agree that MRL is not great. I have never ordered anything from CAS-I and definately won't now.

It's pretty hard to mess up a mace. Did you know the earliest maces were nothing more than a heavy object on the end of a stick?

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Namaste,
Jeff Paulsen

 

[Jim March]

Rusty, if you put an OC spray cannister in the grip somehow you'd have a GREAT "visual pun".

"But officer, I hit the SOB with pepper spray and when that didn't work, I hit him with mace...sorry his skull isn't quite in original shape!"

Aaaaanyways. Bill, the biggest question on doing a piece like this is tip strength. The water-quench process would be radically different than anything traditional and the changes would be right at the all-important tip area. Any guesses whether or not they could deal with it?

Someone else alluded to the idea that once they sharpen the spine, they're liable to try and get there by "pounding the hell out of an ordinary thick spine"...that would lead to...something fairly funky.

I think a pic is in order:

As you can see, there's two ways to skin this cat. I would *prefer* option #2, where tip weight drops via a stock removal process but if that leaves the tip too weak...it's possible the Kamis could do a better job with a "heat and beat" process as in option #3.

Especially with the stock removal process, it's clear we no longer have a woodsman's tool! It ain't gonna have the same heft or strength...this is more like the outer half of a Mad Dog Panther grafted onto the back half of a Khukuri than anything else.

But my GOD what a fighter.

Comments VERY welcome!

Jim March

 

[Yvsa]

:
I have one of the 17" village Sirupatis also.This is the one I said made me want to get naked and do some exotic ballet and I ain't graceful.
I am however 'ful'

You got it Jim.
Take the steel from the spine and push it into the center for the strength.This all gets relative though somewhere in here.

I think I see a little more of where you might be going with this and in that case I would agree the grip is perfect.I was applieing my own (or used to be anyway) style.I need to learn a new way for my age,abiity and strength.

The part about lifting the tip is valid though,but let me back up on that for a bit,sorta

There is a very subtle difference between the 20" Sirupati and the 17" one I have.I hadn't figured it out until now.I laid the 17" on top the 20" and it jumped out at me what the difference is.

The 20" is sorta rounded off toward the tip from the beginning of the angle.(kinda like a drop point.)
The 17" is straight from the angle out.
It makes quite a bit of difference in the positions of the points on the 2 blades in relation to the handle.The 17" is higher and that is where I was suggesting the lift from.
Such is the differences in hand forged blades.

The top edge hardening wouldn't be too much of a problem for these guys I don't think.They are very savvy.
It would mean that the whole point would be hard though,like you said.
The center of the blade would or should be the same.

I have to conceed with what you would desire in this case though because it is your wants that are important in your knife.



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>>>>---¥vsa---->®
The civilized man sleeps behind locked doors in the city while the naked savage sleeps (with a knife) in a open hut in the jungle.

 

[Jim March]

Hmmm. So regarding how to get the secondary edge, what you're suggesting is to use "heat'n'beat" but instead of "spreading the material outwards" from the spine, "pound it in towards the middle".

This would keep the overall outline similar to what it would otherwise be?

Sounds OK. Would there still be overall less material under this plan, or are we talking about the same amount of steel just "redistributed"?

As to the tip position, I agree that so long as nobody tries to hook the tip UP from the spineline out past the crook, we're OK. In fact I think the picture I first drew (picture #1 and preserved in pic #2) is exactly as you describe the 17"er, right? I think weakness would result only if you tried to twist the tip UP any higher, and that's what I first visualized from your earlier words. I think we're on the same page now.

I think if we start with the lightest type of traditional 20" piece we should be OK if the heft is the same on this critter. A hair lighter from a stock-reduction process on the secondary edge would be cool, but only critical if we started with an Ang Khola or something, which methinks would be a very bad idea.

So which is lighter: a 20" Sirupati, or 20" Chaimpuri(sp?)?

One comment on the grip: given my personal size, relative slowness and decent reach I tend to favor a "distance" gameplan. Stay the hell back, attack anything that comes my way at range, close only if I'm way off the guy's centerline where he can't react to me normally. So sweeping, "chopping" power strokes combined with whole-body movement is my thing, and a grip that favors a "smash while retreating feeling" is to me, perfect. And that's exactly what I got out of Joe Talmadge's Ang Khola smooth horn grip.

Jim March

 

[Rusty]

In order, weight is as follows: ( heavier to lighter ).

1) Sirupati
2) Sirupati bladed villager
3) Sirupati bladed/Chainpuri handled villager
4) Chainpuri

The chainpuri blades I've seen look like slimmer narrower versions of the sirupati.

PS: Jeff, no one else believes me either when I tell them I keep the mace and a light saber behind the seat of my truck. They're thinking CS/CN/OC spray when I tell them mace, and Star Wars light saber rather that Confederate Light Cavalry Saber.

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 27 August 1999).]

 

[Yvsa]

:
Thanks Rusty.
Rusty has supplied the weight info needed.
Jim if you will go back a few days on the posts to the one "Yvsa resurects a 20" Sirupati you can kinda see what I mean about the point curveing down from the angle.If you started at the beginning of the angle and kept it straight the point would be some what higher.
I think we are on the same page to now.

The first 2 paragraphs in your post are right on.

If the material from the spine on say a 20" Sirupati was moved down to center to lengthen and forward to also lengthen,which wouldn't be much. It would give the strength you are looking for.
What you said explained it better than what I am trying to say I think.
It may be just a little thicker there than the fuller behind it.

I know!! Kind of like the fuller on a broadsword only with the Kuhkuri curve and a spine on the top side running into an edge.
That may be the best way to describe it.

I don't let people get to close to me physically in certain situations either.
There was a man a little older than me walking along the river near where I live.He was walking to recover from open heart surgey.
He had the crap beat out of him by two young guys because he wasn't armed and was to trusting in an isolated area.
I don't go there alone any more and I go armed with someone.

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>>>>---¥vsa---->®
The civilized man sleeps behind locked doors in the city while the naked savage sleeps (with a knife) in a open hut in the jungle.

 

[Jim March]

Yvsa, I think we ARE on the same page re: the tip construction.

OK...one last thing that you and Rusty can probably help with. Rusty put up a "chart" of weight of various types:

-------------
1) Sirupati
2) Sirupati bladed villager
3) Sirupati bladed/Chainpuri handled villager
4) Chainpuri
-------------

It sounds like there's a major weight factor in the *handles* here? Errrr...hmmmm. This is where my lack of experience is liable to get me in real trouble...what are the differences in grips? Are there any pics of the Chainpuri up somewhere? How would the Chainpuri grip compare to the 15" horn Ang Khola?

It sounds like the Chainpuri should be the starting point, especially if we use a "heat'n'beat the spine material towards dead center of the blade in the tip area" process to get the desired second edge. If we use a "stock removal with a grinder" process we should probably start with the additional heft of the Sirupati to help increase strength but I *think* Yvsa's suggestion of a heat'n'beat process has more going for it.

All comments welcome.

Jim March