Concerns about knife styles

H

Hesparus

Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
1,442
I've been looking into getting some more serious knife training. I have a strong background in martial arts, so I have developed a sensitivity for impracticalities and shortcommings in the various arts (including my own) as well as for straight up bullshit. In my research on the most popular knife arts, my various meters have gone off for every one of them. I am hoping that I can get some feedback about my concerns about the various styles so I can make a good decision about where to go.
Concern #1: Focus on dueling as opposed to defense. While I have no problem with learning dueling, when it comes to defense it seems way to fair.
#2: Reliance on an impractical weapon. Most knife arts come from a time or a place where a particular kind of knife was legal/acceptible/necessary to carry. For example, the Fairbairn/Applegate style is optimized for a 6" dagger. It still works with other kinds of knives but the farther one diverges from the intended weapon, the less effective it becomes. Most of us cannot carry a 6" dagger, so the practicality of the style is inherantly limited.
#3: Emphasis on bizzare situations/traditions. I am not particularly interested in the history or culture of a particular art, especially if it intrudes upon training time/effectiveness. Basic traditions for showing respect are fine, unless they take up too much time or are really bizzare. In the AMOK! system there seems to be a large emphasis on the "brotherhood" and warrior culture. Cultivating this in-group psychology is good for business but what does it lend to the training?

I'd appreciate any and all input.

- Chris
 
I think that maybe I have felt the same as you at some point.

I train in a knife system. But I've been a long time martial arts practicioner. I can remember when martial arts, regardless which one were more inclusive: Judo people learned kicking and punching, Karate people learned throws and holds, etc. Everybody practiced defense against a knife or stick...

Well, for the past couple of years I've been doing only blade study and practice. Then I realized my empty hand (and Kicking) skills and knowledge were going to pot. As I looked around, on the average (don't start the flames yet) knife people lacked other valid and important skills and knowledge.

Defense wise, and even martial arts wise, overemphasis on one thing is not the best or most practical thing in regard to self defense. I do believe that if you follow a martial art long enough you will touch upon all other aspects as well, but that will take a long time because they all follow linear progressions.

But who says you can't take from all the aspects and develop them simultaneously? Mostly the masters and heads of the individual systems and styles. Its up to the individual to take from all these fragments and recreate the whole, and to do it at the pace suited for them. So, I decided to round out my program again.

I found something where in the average session you may work on punching, escape from holds, knife, multiple opponents, and ground work, etc. I am now a convert to that sort of practice. I've redeveoped my self defense confidence, whether I am armed or not. And even if armed, I don't have the mentality of "Oh, I must get my knife."

So, I agree with you that something is missing from most knife arts, but accept that there has to be something for everybody. And for somepeople that fragment is what they want or possibly even need at the time. There was a time when all I wanted and could only be sold on, and sought out, was Karate. Now I'm looking for the whole again, the comprehensiveness of martial arts...hope this helps.
 
Alas, if all you care about is realistic combatives, you'll find problems in just about any style ... although how much nonsense you find does vary by style, and just as much by instructor. I've come to the conclusion that I need to soak up what I can from my style, and then occasionally go off-syllabus with some good training partners to emphasize what I feel is most practical. I can tell you what I feel is relatively more practical versus what is relatively less practical, but that's not quite what your thread is about.

I also think that Quiet Priest is right in that in most systems, you'll eventually get around to hitting all the key stuff, but it can be frustrating waiting for that material to come around ... and you'll need to figure out what that key stuff is. My training partners and I went to a park last week and spent the entire session training against a bad-guy who starts close up, comes in with a ruse and explosively attacks with a knife. No pulling your own folder unless you can make time & space to do so, and it's often not the case that you can. We're going to keep pounding this out week after week, because we all think it's a critical skill that doesn't get enough emphasis in class. That's essentially the way I ensure that I'm getting enough time on the important skills ... but I learn the skills initially in a class or outside seminar. The key for me is that you MUST have training partners who are like-minded as far as wanting to get extra training in on the more realistic stuff.

Joe
 
Salaam...I guess it is my turn to chime in here. I agree with MR. Priest that SOME knife-rs lack the fundamental empty hand combativeness, this is no new phenomenon it is the same with people who are solely hand gun advocates etc. they may have a bit of knife and a bit of empty hands to counter balance there other craft but a lot of times they are lacking. In the south east Asian systems that I have studied and now teach the knife is viewed as merely a tool to get a specified job done! With that being said the mind set of SELF-DEFENSE is not one advocated by these methods or there teachers. The knife is an ambush weapon not a dueling weapon and the way I was taught and continue to teach is with that intent in mind, now one must understand that AMBUSH is not a technique but rather a mind set and as a mind set the possibilities for rapid, tactical and decisive maneuvers are endless, limited only to the ability to think by the said persilat, kalistador etc.

There is a saying in Pekititersia that the stick is the knife is the empty hand and when one learns this syllabus he will find that he is solid in all three aspects, weapon to empty hand is transferable empty hand to weapon is not in context of flow. As well in Silat, weaponry is just another option a mere tool once again.

I too understand the original posters concerns and I will address each one separately.

1. Focus on dueling as opposed to defense. While I have no problem with learning dueling, when it comes to defense it seems way to fair.

Answer: Dueling is a skill that is necessary because as we all know shit does happen and it is better to have this skill and not need it as opposed to need it and not have it..always remember MURPHYS LAW here..it also builds gross motor movement skills if taught and done correctly. The word defense should never ever be used when knife combatives or IMHO combatives period are being taught etc. there is no such thing as knife self defense..PERIOD!...If you ever train in the P.I. or Malaysia you will soon understand why..also go check out some police photos on knife defense wounds..this will definitely clear this misnomer up...to defend means you are constantly behind in timing which leads to DOOM!

2. Reliance on an impractical weapon. Most knife arts come from a time or a place where a particular kind of knife was legal/acceptable/necessary to carry. For example, the Fairbairn/Applegate style is optimized for a 6" dagger. It still works with other kinds of knives but the farther one diverges from the intended weapon, the less effective it becomes. Most of us cannot carry a 6" dagger, so the practicality of the style is inherently limited.

Answer: What is impractical about a knife? I feel it is probably one of the most practical of all weapons. I also disagree with the statement that most knife arts lend credence to a particular type of blade that is legal for a certain time etc. A knife is a tool PERIOD..it is the human being handling it which makes it go....no matter the size edge, point etc. Once again I go back to my training in the Silat systems...the Persilat of Malaysia scoff at this notion, their whole idea is that its a knife no matter the type. Now I do agree that we as individuals do have our preferences..I prefer a scimitar style blade but that's not to say that what I do with that blade cannot be duplicated with another. Why cant you carry a 6" dagger? Conceal it keep it covered etc. if your not a criminal who plans on wielding it for ill gotten gains then why worry..I carry 3 blades on me all supposedly illegal but guess what..the police I know say who cares your a good man and you don't look for trouble etc. the same applies with firearms...if you carry doesn't mean your going to pull it for bad things etc. Style is one mans interpretation of a said method or system so in some aspects I do agree with you...your style may be limited due to your choice of weapon or lack of practical training or a lack of forethought etc. but to assume that the weapon makes something non functional is not true. You are the weapon not the knife.

3. Emphasis on bizarre situations/traditions. I am not particularly interested in the history or culture of a particular art, especially if it intrudes upon training time/effectiveness. Basic traditions for showing respect are fine, unless they take up too much time or are really bizarre. In the AMOK! system there seems to be a large emphasis on the "brotherhood" and warrior culture. Cultivating this in-group psychology is good for business but what does it lend to the training?

Answer: Define bizarre situations/traditions? If you mean to learn where your skills come from and the reason your being taught these methods etc. I couldn't disagree more. In south east Asia (arguably the best knife systems in the world) this is a very very important aspect of the training. These men do not hand out this material on a DVD or for shits and grins..it means something to them it has been tested in blood and passed down from person to person as the Cikgus, Guros, Babas saw fit..not every practitioner receives this type of training. If you believe that discussing philosophy , heritage, application etc. over a cup of chai is useless then my friend the boat may have already sailed for in this culture it is extremely important. If one cannot decipher methods cerebrally then he may in fact be inept on a physical plane as well due to his non desire to truly cultivate a method of life or death. I also disagree with the statement "a large emphasis on the "brotherhood" and warrior culture. Cultivating this in-group psychology is good for business but what does it lend to the training" why do you not covet this idea, we are not talking about going down to Dannys Tae Kwon Do and buying your B.B. or doing some little open tournament in your PJ's for trophies. The aspect of a brother hood a warriors creed is very important. When you learn true knife methods you are dealing with life and death..a knife is fatal not only to the bad guy but also to you if you do not have the mindset to deal with the ramifications of deploying said blade..a warrior ethos instills in the persilat , student etc. a sense of responsibility and a sense of togetherness that you must have to train hard core etc. too train with a knife one needs partners who are willing to capitulate there very essence to you their brother so that your skills and his skills are honed to a very high level as well as honing your mind, your heart and yes your humanity....all of these elements are crucial in developing the individual into a solid player in all aspects of life.

In closing, there are many paths to the top of the mountain..but to dismiss one because it deals with a traditional mindset of honor, respect, culture, warrior ethos, lineage, chivalry etc. is IMHO wrong....But to each there own! Take care..Salaam

Michael B.
Silat Askari
SATX
 
In defense of traditional knife styles though. The longer a style or system has existed, the more it's had a chance to work out some kinks. I try to keep an open mind and eye.

When I see something that seems useful and effective, I respectfully approach it and take what I can. That may require temporarily accepting some impracticalities, some bs, some superstition or even mythology, but once you have the essential, you can for yourselve discard the rest.

I don't mind comming off as simple to other martial artists cause I can't count in Japanesse to 100 (I used to!) or know all the Indonesian terms for a punch or slap, or can explain in Tagalog what a gunting is. But a slash is a slash by any other name, so is a punch or kick.

In the final analysis I have to own the material, but getting it incurs a price. The price usually entails money, bruises, creeds, sometimes sworn loyalties, and suspension of disbelief in regard to other elements. Until you've got their material to the place where you own it, you'll have to pay to play.

Rick
 
Hesparus:"For example, the Fairbairn/Applegate style is optimized for a 6" dagger. It still works with other kinds of knives but the farther one diverges from the intended weapon, the less effective it becomes. Most of us cannot carry a 6" dagger, so the practicality of the style is inherently limited."

Many fel assaults occur with kitchen knives. I know that at least 3 of my kitchen knives are larger than the Fairbairn Dagger.

guromkb: "also go check out some police photos on knife defense wounds.."

Find a copy of the book "Death Scenes" I believe its still in print. Tame by some standards.
 
Yes, you are likely to be attacked with a larger knife but you are less likely to defend yourself with a larger knife. I most places people are limited to a 3" blade and everywhere else people don't usually carry much bigger because it's a pain in the ass.

- Chris
 
Hesparus said:
Yes, you are likely to be attacked with a larger knife but you are less likely to defend yourself with a larger knife. I most places people are limited to a 3" blade and everywhere else people don't usually carry much bigger because it's a pain in the ass.

- Chris
Click to expand...

I will agree that it will be difficult to carry a larger knife. However, I do carry a knife with a 6" blade on a regular basis(folder). My regular carry fixed blade is only 3.5". Military personnel might be more likely to carry fixed blade knives as large as 6" or bigger (hence the military Fairbairn-Sykes System).

You are also right that you may have to defend yourself against a larger knife, and you will usually be unarmed as most knife attacks are ambushes and not duels. I do know of a few stories involving people who defended themselves with knives larger that 3". One of them was a women who scared of an intruder by producing a large (over 6" blade) kitchen knife and telling the person she would stab them if they came in the apartment. On the bad guy's side, I also know of a case recently where a boyfriend killed his girlfriend with what was described as a "samurai" sword. That would be tough to defend against unarmed or otherwise. So, my point is, some training deals with what is possible, maybe not always what is probable. It doesn't necessarily mean you should discount it altogether, just make it a smaller portion of your training.

Anyways, if your looking for some realistic techniques and background information, you could check out:

Winning a Street Knife Fight
Surviving a Street Knife Fight
(both videos) by Marc MacYoung (he has, in my opinion, one of the most realistic approaches to self defense you can find in video or print:thumbup: :thumbup: )

Not the most exciting read ever, but still a good one:
Logic of Steel by James Lafond
Gives examples from all different perspectives of blade/shank encounters.

All 3 can be picked up from Paladin Press...
 
The first example I gave took place at a apartment complex in Dayton, OH. It did not make the news.

Here is a news account of the second example I gave.

Cynthia Jennings-Wade
Date: Friday, March 25
Time: Sometime before 6 p.m.
Location: 100 Devonhurst Drive in the Georgetown of Kettering(Ohio) apartment building
Age: 38
Sex: Female
Race: Black
Facts: Ronald Wade's sister told Kettering police that her brother, 49, had called her and told her he had killed his wife and intended to kill himself. Jennings-Wade was dead at the scene. She was stabbed or cut 30 times. A37-inch sword was recovered.
Cause of death: Multiple stab and chop wounds.
Status of case: The couple, married six years, had discussed ending their marriage. Ronald Wade apparently stabbed his wife after he learned she was looking for an apartment. He was arrested March 25 and charged with murder. Pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

sidenote: I'm pretty sure this just recently went to a jury trial and he was found guilty after 2 hours of deliberations. However, the disposition is not on the website yet...If you want to see it:
http://www.clerk.co.montgomery.oh.us/pro/printable_docket.cfm?ocid=4/N/"WH35QL?7]L_Y.3W,TL>'7LD

Almost forgot: this account came from www.daytondailynews.com
 
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well.
I am concerned with the type of knife the art uses. 6-8" is dandy for military personel and anyone who's allowed to carry something like that, but it's not an option for many of us for whatever reason. A person can deffinately defend themself with a 3" blade or even smaller but not all styles are conducive to the use of a blade that small. In the extreme case, I study iaijutsu — but that certainly wouldn't do me any good if all I had was a 3" folder.
Every style has a blade length that is optimal. Is there one that is optimal for a shorter blade?

- Chris
 
QP said: "...I found something where in the average session you may work on punching, escape from holds, knife, multiple opponents, and ground work, etc. "

This pretty much describes what we do in Hapkido to a 'T' - its what we've been doing for as long as I've been involved with the Art actually... Just lucky to have the right teacher :thumbup:

On to the question at hand though, and I will paraphrase something I read by Hock Hockheim that rings true for me; basically he said something to the effect that the longer the knife, the more 'fencing type' skills were needed but the shorter the knife, the more 'kickboxing' & 'juijitsu-like' skills were necessary. ...Makes sense to me.

Taking Hock's thought a step further though; "mid-range" and "short-range" knife techniques are the keys to making your training fit the needs of the smaller blade for defense - cutting and passing, thrusting and passing, moving into & through your opponent - these are all skills that translate to the folder best IMO.

IMO there isn't that great a difference in using a typical folder versus a 6" trainer technique-wise though; hold up the folder you EDC next to the typical rubber or wooden training knife & there is typically about a 3.5" difference in overall length, give or take... I have used trainers for knife training exercizes that were as much as 6" shorter than my partners trainer in class without any problems -- so the skills can be developed with the larger trainer & refined.

So, for skills that translate to defending yourself with a typical folder, you should look for a system that teaches short & medium range knife combatives in addition to "...punching, escape from holds... ...multiple opponents, and ground work, etc. " - as per QP's suggestion above :cool:
 
Hesparus said:
Every style has a blade length that is optimal. Is there one that is optimal for a shorter blade?
Click to expand...

Many Silat/Filipino Martial Arts utilize blades of different sizes. Also, many Silat/FMA techniques can be translated from empty hand to the small knife (and visa versa).
 
KunTao Silat uses a smaller knife much of the time, and all movements are weapons and empty-handed at the same time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top