Condursal Z1100

Stuart Davenport Knives

Stuart Davenport Knives

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Feb 7, 2022
Messages
434
Has anyone tried using Condursal Z1100? It is an antiscale/antidecarb product that is used in heat treating to protect steel from oxygen, much like ATP-641. I came across a YT video of a knifemaker using it on two identical knives, one with this stuff and the other with SS foil. While not quite as clean post plate quench as a blade with SS foil, it seemed to work decently and gave excellent hardness readings. Another guy, who oil quenched with it, it didn't work as well, but his goal was a perfectly clean blade post heat treat. I don't really care about that, as I grind post heat treat most of the time. My main concern is how well it protects from decarb, not how shiny the blade comes out.

It looks like a thin green slime, not like ATP-641 at all. I have tried ATP-641 for SS, but I get some weird pitting, and just went back to using the SS heat treat foil.

I believe I saw a comment on IG from one of the well known makers in Switzerland who said that Condursal Z1100 is indispensable in his shop. I forget the gents name, but he knows what he is doing. KKnives Switzerland or something like that. Some of you will know the guy, I just can't recall the name.

SS foil is so expensive. This jar is 0.9KG (about one quart if my math is right) for 58 Euros from a knife supplier across the pond and would coat hundreds of blades. If you have good (or bad) experiences with this stuff, I know I am interested.
 
I used condurzal couple of times now on aebl. Worked out great. Had grindthe surface clean tho on the belt grinder after heat treat to get a good hardness reading.
I applied two small layers on the knives with a brush.
Quenching with aluminum plates.
 
I am getting the impression that this Condursal doesn't work nearly as well as SS foil when it comes to protecting from decarb. When applied it even looks so thin, not very viscous at all. SS foil isn't perfect when it comes to decarb protection, but at least the decarb layer is super super thin with SS foil. A lot of times the SS foil actually welds to the blade when I plate quench. I try to get into the cryo bath ASAP, and sometimes the foil that won't come off easily just goes into the cryo with the blade. I can take my time removing the stuck pieces once the cryo is done. SS is such a pain in the butt. It would be nice to have a "paint" that worked just as well as SS foil, but without the cost and hassle.
 
Let's be practical here. A stainless HT foil packet for most size knives costs $5 or less. That is pretty cheap to get the best HT possible. You can buy the foil in small 24X24" squares, or by the roll. The price is best in a roll. Buy once cry once.
 
Practical? Yeah, that's what I am sort of after, along with the convenience. I fail to understand your point, Stacy. A 10 foot roll of 321 is more expensive than one quart of Condursal. How many blades does a 10" roll give you? I am not really sure, as I never counted. But it's just a 10 foot roll. Maybe a couple dozen at the most, depending on size????

This quart would coat literally a hundred blades, if not more. A couple of dozen blades at $80 vs a hundred or more for ~$63, plus the added convenience of just being able to paint the stuff on. No dealing with making pouches, risk of cutting yourself, the ease and convenience of going right from the plates into cryo, without the hassle of removing from the foil, and as I said in the previous post, many times the foil just welds itself to the blade.
 
OK, I'm getting mixed signals???
You said :
"I am getting the impression that this Condursal doesn't work nearly as well as SS foil when it comes to protecting from decarb. When applied it even looks so thin, not very viscous at all. SS foil isn't perfect when it comes to decarb protection, but at least the decarb layer is super super thin with SS foil. .."

I was simply offering foil as a good and proven alternative. Stainless foil has been the industry standard for half a century.
At $80 a 10-foot roll, that would out to $4 a blade for 20 blades a roll (1sqft a blade). I consider $4 a blade a good investment in a good HT.

What steel are you working in? What I see in Condursal's info is it is good for carbon steels and some tools steels, but it is at its failure point for stainless steels. Seems like 1600°F/850°C is the sweet spot.

I have used Turco II for many years on carbon steel blades I HT. It works great in the HT oven and pretty good in the forge up to 1600°F. It is a thick orange fluid that dries as a good coating. I found it works best if you let it fully dry on its own and not rush it with heat.

Turco needs to be shaken up or mixed very well before use, as it separates while sitting on the shelf. Perhaps that is part of the issue you are having with Condursal?
 
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I have never used it. Hence the post, Stacy.

I don't know how effective it is, I haven't used it. I saw a YT video of a guy using it on AEBL, he got good hardness readings, the decarb was very minimal. I saw another video, and read some comments, that showed it didn't protect well. I also read comments, again just repeating myself here, from very experienced makers that work with extremely highly wear resistant tool and stainless steels who said that they love the stuff.

I am simply trying to find out if anyone else out there in this community has used Condursal, and their opinion of it. If makers who have used it give it the thumbs up, I am going to try it.

Forget the fact that it would be way cheaper than foil. Sure, a packet might come out to $5. That's one knife. A coating of this stuff on one knife would be on the order of cents, not dollars. But forget that fact.

I would much much much rather paint stuff on a blade than deal with SS foil. It's that simple.
 
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I have always wrapped my chrome blades in 321 sheets. I have been using condursal for about two years, and I must say that it works well, there are some suggestions:
- it must be put in the oven when the paint is perfectly dry,
- the protective layer of paint must be applied after careful cleaning with acetone or similar,
- the layer must be thin, if it is too thick when you put it in the oven it will catch fire and will not protect the blade,
- you don't have to go above 1100°C (I did this once going to 1120°C and the blade decarbed badly).
 
I must also add that when I make integral blades, which therefore have different thicknesses along the knife, the condursal works much better than the 321 sheet, which instead tends to leave too much air inside and cause slightly higher decarburetion.
 
Foil is quite a bit more economical when you buy 100 feet at a time. I figure I am at $1.40 per knife for 309 stainless. I also never have had 309 stainless stick to knife blank.
 
I use the 321 foil. I’ve had it weld to blades in the past and it creates a terrible situation trying to get it off, usually ending up back to the grinder to remove it, that kind of bad. BUT…I found the answer, just dust the blade with talcum powder, baby, scented, whatever, the the foil won’t ever stick again. I’ve been using this method for years and never had the foil weld to the blade again.
 
MKknife, thanks for the tips on using it. I'm still juggling ordering a jar.

And just to clarify about the price saving, as minimal as it may be, if there is a "paint" that works just as consistently well for protection against decarb, I am in. I use ATP-641 for carbon steel, and I absolutely love the stuff. If something exactly like that will work just as well for SS, I think a lot of people will toss the foil.

Bladegrinder, I tried the talcum powder once, and I got the opposite problem. The packet ballooned up in the oven. So much so that it sort of wedged between the little ceramic posts that hold the knife. Another pain when you're trying to get to plates quickly! I may try the talcum again and see what's what. But I guess that my folding is done very very well, because maybe 80% of the time I'm fighting the foil welding to the knife. Tried the little piece of paper inside as well, didn't seem to help.

I've tried cleaning the knife prior, with a thorough degreasing and soap bath. I've tried a light coat of oil, which seems to make the balloon effect worse, and the talcum, which ballooned on me as well. I seem to get the best results if I just don't do anything to the knife after profiling, drilling, etc. Putting it in the foil just as it is seems to give me the most consistent results, but with a lot of welded packets.
 
I'm sorry to hear you had ballooning with the talcum powder. I use an old bottle of Johnson's baby powder, blades have a 320-400 grit finish and wiped clean with acetone.
foil packs are double folded, blades are usually CPM154 and I've never had ballooning over hundreds of knives.

I don't set the blades between post's though, I set them with edge up on a fire brick that has probably 1/2" slots in them, but I plate quench and never noticed any ballooning when putting them on the plates.
 
Can someone tell me what graphite spray on a stainless blade will do with subsequent HT in a SS envelope? Could this be a release agent? Or perhaps just the opposite and a wonderful binder? LOL
I can’t get in the shop to test. (Health, again, or still. :(). Anyone know? Thanks.
 
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Fitzo,
That is a question I have had for a while and never gotten around to test. Hopefully someone will check it out for us.
 
fitzo said:
Can someone tell me what graphite spray on a stainless blade will do with subsequent HT in a SS envelope? Could this be a release agent? Or perhaps just the opposite and a wonderful binder? LOL
I can’t get in the shop to test. (Health, again, or still. :(). Anyone know? Thanks.
Click to expand...
When I tested graphite spray as a coating alone for oil quench steel I found that it did zero for limiting decarb.
 
I was interested in spraying a stainless blade, letting it dry, and then putting it in a foil packet. Seems like that would allow the graphite/carbon to eat up the oxygen in the bag and maybe even slightly raise the surface carbon content of the blade. What I don't know is how it will affect the blade sticking to the foil. I would also like to know how it works on carbon steels and tool steels in a foil packet.
 
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