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I've never understood it either. Why would I want to ignore people with differing opinions? If I only wanted to converse with like minded views, I'd just talk to myself all day.
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Congrats to KNIFE RIGHTS - Ineffective & unfair IVORY ban FAILS in WA. State!
- Thread starter Scrim
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I've never understood it either. Why would I want to ignore people with differing opinions? If I only wanted to converse with like minded views, I'd just talk to myself all day.
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- Nov 20, 2005
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- 19,385
I think common sense prevailed when people actually thought a ban through that was all encompassing considering that we already have a ban on new ivory being imported into the USA. I say, let US Fish & Wildlife do their job to capture the small amount of illegal ivory that comes into the USA. As far as the African Elephant goes, conservation, rigorous enforcement within the countries that have a population, and enforcement at the harbor. A ban in the US will not likely save one elephant from poachers.
stabman
Gold Member
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- Sep 17, 2007
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Some folks are only searching for an echo chamber.
Or at least confirmation that there views are considered normal by others.
A topic which polarizes people and brings strong emotions into the discourse doesn't fulfill either of those roles.
Nobody... no human being has "a right" to kill an animal for its Ivory. It's barbarism on the part of the poachers, greed on the suppliers, and ignorance from the fools who think this material contains some sort of magical properties that will cure disease or make their dick stiff.
We need to do the right thing and protect these helpless animals where ever we can. Even if its unilaterally. These animals do not deserve to be killed un-mercilessly and their bodies hacked and ripped open to pieces. This is senseless killing.
I think you just meant "mercilessly" here, or perhaps "unmercifully."
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2014
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This is not a "General Knife Discussion." This is about ivory and politics.
I have outlined this before in other threads. This is actually a very simple issue.
The greatest threat to elephants is poaching. Poachers kill elephants and sell the tusks to the global illegal ivory industry.
The US is the #2 market for the trade in ivory. Intermixed with the legal trade is a significant market for illegal ivory. This is documented by multiple sources and the USFW agrees with this.
It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. (Again, this is the position of the USFW.) The creation of loopholes for "pre ban", mammoth, ivory from legal hunts, etc., makes it easier for the illegal ivory industry to operate.
EVERY major group (without a financial interest in the ivory trade) working to protect the elephants recommends a total ban on the sale and trade of ivory. Knife Rights and the rest of the pro-ivory lobby do not.
Eradicating the second largest market for ivory in the world (the US) WILL NOT increase demand for ivory. Instead, it will decrease demand and increase the cost for the illegal ivory trade to do business.
It is readily apparent that Knife Rights values the continued sale of ivory in the US higher than the slaughter of elephants. That is what Knife Rights is getting paid to do. This is abhorrent. If you sell / trade legal ivory, your actions indirectly support the illegal ivory trade and the activities of the poacher that are destroying the few remaining elephants.
I have tried to have a fact based conversation about these issues with some of the pro-ivory folks in other threads. Unfortunately, with an absence of data and facts to support their position, the pro-ivory posters simply ignore the facts and resort to emotion and fallacy to justify their position. With that in mind, debate about this topic is a waste of time. I would encourage those that are interested in learning more about this to do your own research and not blindly accept Knife Rights and the posters making a living working with ivory as a source of factual information.
I have outlined this before in other threads. This is actually a very simple issue.
The greatest threat to elephants is poaching. Poachers kill elephants and sell the tusks to the global illegal ivory industry.
The US is the #2 market for the trade in ivory. Intermixed with the legal trade is a significant market for illegal ivory. This is documented by multiple sources and the USFW agrees with this.
It is extremely difficult to differentiate legally acquired ivory from ivory derived from elephant poaching. (Again, this is the position of the USFW.) The creation of loopholes for "pre ban", mammoth, ivory from legal hunts, etc., makes it easier for the illegal ivory industry to operate.
EVERY major group (without a financial interest in the ivory trade) working to protect the elephants recommends a total ban on the sale and trade of ivory. Knife Rights and the rest of the pro-ivory lobby do not.
Eradicating the second largest market for ivory in the world (the US) WILL NOT increase demand for ivory. Instead, it will decrease demand and increase the cost for the illegal ivory trade to do business.
It is readily apparent that Knife Rights values the continued sale of ivory in the US higher than the slaughter of elephants. That is what Knife Rights is getting paid to do. This is abhorrent. If you sell / trade legal ivory, your actions indirectly support the illegal ivory trade and the activities of the poacher that are destroying the few remaining elephants.
I have tried to have a fact based conversation about these issues with some of the pro-ivory folks in other threads. Unfortunately, with an absence of data and facts to support their position, the pro-ivory posters simply ignore the facts and resort to emotion and fallacy to justify their position. With that in mind, debate about this topic is a waste of time. I would encourage those that are interested in learning more about this to do your own research and not blindly accept Knife Rights and the posters making a living working with ivory as a source of factual information.
To be fair, I doubt it's the only issue upon which they are focusing right now.
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:thumbup:- Joined
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I really wish this crap would stop getting posted like its some kinda victory. It is such a shame to think about the money WASTED on this, when rights to actually own ANY knives are being actively being eroded. KR celebrates here as if they feel this is a victory, when it is not. I am disappointed to think my donations to the group has funded crap like this.. i sure won't make that mistake twice (yeah yeah, i know, small fish, big pond.. blah blah)..
Either way, this frankly has nothing to do with actual knife rights, or general discussion, and this propaganda belongs on a different board..
Either way, this frankly has nothing to do with actual knife rights, or general discussion, and this propaganda belongs on a different board..
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2005
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- 19,385
Guess it depends on your perspective on the ivory issue. New elephant ivory is already banned in the United States and that includes Washington state.
Ivory is used on knives to some degree. It makes the knife rather expensive. I have little interest in owning a bunch of ivory (old or new), but I can not support a more restrictive ban.
Ivory is used on knives to some degree. It makes the knife rather expensive. I have little interest in owning a bunch of ivory (old or new), but I can not support a more restrictive ban.
I would like a collector/curator exception in New Mexico like the one recently enacted in New York. :thumbup:
Sometimes I fear that the American electorate has no idea about what is important, then I see that we can really come together to do something great and amazing - like become the world's least useful special interest group.
Can you imagine if this sort of effort was put towards something like economic reform? Nope, I can't either.
Can you imagine if this sort of effort was put towards something like economic reform? Nope, I can't either.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
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- 4,423
I personally could not give a rat's hairless tail if you have the right to carry a switchblade but I respect your right to want it, and would (and do) help you fight for it. I would appreciate it if you would do the same for me.
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Well it is a victory. It's something we have been fighting for, and we won. That is a victory for us even if you don't feel that way.
It's funny that the two states at which we have been able to tell the other side of the issue, we won hands down. The two we were not given a seat at were the ones that imposed ivory bans. Why do you think that is?
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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- Jul 15, 2003
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- 12,554
Here's the thing for me....
I personally don't own knives or guns handled in ivory because I don't care for it as a material(not attractive enough to ignore it's faults(unlike pearl) and not as durable as something like stag, but I do have a pool cue handled in estate ivory(certified over 50 years old) and I have some pieces of fossil walrus ivory.
Many of the laws proposed make no exemption for fossil walrus ivory, which in the vast majority of cases, you would have to be blind to confuse it with elephant ivory....but the law makers and law enforcers(Fish and Wildlife in most cases) don't want to be bothered with being burdened with the knowledge on how to differentiate the two...so they lump it in.
THAT I have a problem with. We are talking about LOOOOONG dead animals....to say the it is illegal to trade in a material legally harvested from the ground is beyond incomprehensible.....and in an awful lot of cases, frankly, removing a source of income from indigenous peoples....which is wrong in it's own way.
I have some very good friends who hunt that make very good arguments for keeping the elephant ivory trade legal in the US, but I don't know enough about that to comment one way or the other. I don't like the idea that someday, my pool cue could be illegal to own or sell, so I just tell people that the inlays are white plastic....and leave it at that. Regardless of the fact that people like Doug Ritter or Mark Knapp make money in the lknife world, they also do a lot of good and provide benefit for many people besides themselves.
What have you done for the benefit of the knife world lately?
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
I personally don't own knives or guns handled in ivory because I don't care for it as a material(not attractive enough to ignore it's faults(unlike pearl) and not as durable as something like stag, but I do have a pool cue handled in estate ivory(certified over 50 years old) and I have some pieces of fossil walrus ivory.
Many of the laws proposed make no exemption for fossil walrus ivory, which in the vast majority of cases, you would have to be blind to confuse it with elephant ivory....but the law makers and law enforcers(Fish and Wildlife in most cases) don't want to be bothered with being burdened with the knowledge on how to differentiate the two...so they lump it in.
THAT I have a problem with. We are talking about LOOOOONG dead animals....to say the it is illegal to trade in a material legally harvested from the ground is beyond incomprehensible.....and in an awful lot of cases, frankly, removing a source of income from indigenous peoples....which is wrong in it's own way.
I have some very good friends who hunt that make very good arguments for keeping the elephant ivory trade legal in the US, but I don't know enough about that to comment one way or the other. I don't like the idea that someday, my pool cue could be illegal to own or sell, so I just tell people that the inlays are white plastic....and leave it at that. Regardless of the fact that people like Doug Ritter or Mark Knapp make money in the lknife world, they also do a lot of good and provide benefit for many people besides themselves.
What have you done for the benefit of the knife world lately?
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
fishface5
Gold Member
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