Constructive Criticisms

jhiggins

jhiggins

Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Messages
3,258
This thread is to elaborate on a point in Spark's "Help-Needed" thread, made by Bill Buxton and Dan Gray. The gist of it is that we aren't being honest to ourselves and honest to the maker who posts his work, asking for honest opinions. To evaluate someone else's work by photo alone is difficult, but we CAN make a difference to that maker by offering friendly and constructive criticisms on fit, finish, style, etc.

Personally, if I know a maker is starting out, I'll be kind. The eye for good work developes over time. Usually the maker, unless a total noob has some idea of what looks good and what doesn't. I'll offer sound advice on certain glaring defects, though.

This isn't to say we should get totally carried away and get ultra-anal about things either. Some folks will never make a perfect knife. Does that even exist? Well, maybe Mr. Lake... :D

Please enter your thoughts on this subject?
 
I will be happy to ride Buxton's arse as much as he will want. He's already told me to buzz off a couple times. :D (Not really. Bill takes all comments under careful consideration and is always eager for another point of view. A very admirable trait. A dear friend.)

Jeff, this is always a difficult thing to determine whether a person is looking for compliments or critique. Does a newbie want the real truth, or just a small dose? Do you tell someone their design sux when it's all out of proportion? Or that the lack of decent finish can't possibly be other than that's where they decided to stop despite the fact it doesn't look near as good as a little more work would produce?

I have such a hard time trying to decide whether to say something or not, I often just don't even make ANY comment. A recent incident on CKD Sheath forum pointed out that some people are simply fishing for compliments, and when they ask "any comments?" they don't really mean critique.

I personally have a difficult time trying to decide just how much a person may want to hear, regardless of how nice it may be said.

I will anxiously watch this thread develop, as I'd really like to better understand what people truly mean when they ask for comments.
 
I ask for opinion or thinking I am anyway
But thinking back may not have been?
when I say what do you think...

so I should ask pick it apart guys
you have to through out personal opinions of style I think.
and keep to the basic fit and finish, and types of materials used, problems
you can have with them. after all it is shop talk.
I would ask for opinions that have been proven,,not just a thought that might work, unless asked for maybe?

Like I use epoxies and others might use Bedding glass.
I'd want an opinion from someone that has used both and an answer to
why he likes one over the other

that type of thing I look for..
 
For instance, when someone shows a finish that has scratches going every which way on the blade, shouldn't it be obvious to them that what separates that from a prettier finish is just a little more effort and focus? Or gaps in a guard/handle fit or whatever? Do people really need to be told things like that?

Honestly, I think they should be paying enough attention to their own work and the huge number of photos and literature out there about others' work to know a lot of this and be able to compare. A lot of knifemaking is about study, and I feel it has to be the self-imposed obligation of each maker to do just that for themselves.

I'm not arguing against the idea of asking for a critique, but I will go on record as saying a maker, a newbie, especially, needs to do his own homework. It comes down to a question, often, it seems, of "is this good enough" versus "is this the best I can possibly do at this time". I say live with the latter. But, then again, I'm a prick, so what do I know, eh? :footinmou
 
Maybe create a second display area? One that would be called "Critiquing" or something, where the sometimes brutal truth could be laid down? The poster would at least be indicating criticism is expected and constructive criticism encouraged? The normal display area could be reserved for wanting "just positive vibes, man"! Just a thought.

Is that essentially what you suggested in the other thread, Bill?
 
Having been schooled in the art of constructive criticism....I welcome it with open arms!

You don't go through architecture school without posting your projects and having them literally torn to pieces by teachers, visiting jurors and even other students! (I did my fair share of tearing-it-up myself, of course...:D)


Bill Buxton has asked for my opinion on a few things he's made and I've given it to him straight up. Maybe it was more than he wanted, but he got it for free...:D


I think the idea of having a "Crit Pit" (or something "down-n-dirty" like that) is great.

I'd like to post my knives and get honest responses without people worrying about getting offended, or offending me.


But here's how I'd recommend doing it:

1 - Be Specific. The person posting the work for review needs to say more than "How do ya like it, y'all..?" :rolleyes: They need to disclose upfront what exactly they want us to critique, be it design, fit/finish, materials, whatever. I think all of those things should be open to review as long as the maker's willing to listen to it.

2 - Don't Be Apologetic. The maker should never say anything like "I wasn't quite finished, but here it is anyway..." or "It didn't turn out the way I wanted it to...." These types of comments make it hard to properly review the piece. It's as if the maker already knows what's wrong with it, but needs us to confirm it - bad situation.

3 - Be Honest. True constructive criticism is devoid of personal emotions, bias or passions. (also see #4)

4 - If you can't say it nicely, keep it to yourself. Everybody has a mama...time to listen to what she taught ya as a youngun....

5 - Be Prepared to Get Slammed. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.


I think there will be a greater potential for people getting pissed off at each other's remarks...and, in general, we're all leery of that already....evidenced by the lack of constructive criticism we have now. We're all too nice...but that's actually very common. In all the studio classes I've taken, attended, taught, etc. - everybody starts out that way....timid at giving criticism. But after a while, you all get used to it and if you hang around the same crowd long enough...you can almost predict what they're going to say...:D


I'm not trying to dictate how it should be run - that will be up to Kit and Darrell. But I've been doing "constructive criticism" full-time for around 10 years and I've learned that some things work better than others.


For the record: I'm behind this 110%. Let's do it!
 
Fitzo, you may be onery, but you are not a prick! Not by my standards, anyhow. I am giving some room here for some fun they are going to have with you, though. You said it very well about new makers, or want to be makers doing some homework. I also think makers that post their work here are looking for honest opinions and suggestions on their work. I can't remember any sorry excuses for work posted here. In fact, most knives seen here and made by our forum knife makers are some of the best I have ever seen. I have been making and selling for my fair share of years and I am learning a lot from young and old alike here.
 
I agree with separate areas for display and for critiques. You're right in that some people don't want to hear the bad stuff, while others get a little sick of nothing but sickly sweet compliments. I also think sometimes it's hard for the responder to know what exactly the poster wants. I don't want to critique someone on their first knife when they're just looking for encouragement to keep making them, and I don't want to smother someone with compliments when they're looking for ways to improve...

Long story short, a critique board is a good idea.
 
John Andrews said:
Fitzo, you may be onery, but you are not a prick! Not by my standards, anyhow. I am giving some room here for some fun they are going to have with you, though.
Click to expand...

Thank you, John! Nicest thing anyone's said to me all day! :) I'm waiting to see what IG says to me...plenty of fuel for a good fire here with all my fat!

Actually, the more I think about it, aside from the obvious that I think all makers should learn to be self-critiquing early on, a critical forum where we can disuss things like "is that guard to small" or "does that upsweep fit the handle shape" can create some really positive discussion and help expand all our thinking and knowledge.

Van Barnett talked to us for a half hour one day in Paltalk about how a guard should not break one's focus as our eye traverses a knife. He spoke about flow in a knife design. It was a great lecture on knife dynamics, and one I will not soon forget. I'd love to see more of that here.

That is one of the coolest things about knifemaking as a craft, there is absolutley no end to how we can "take it up another notch". That, personally, is what it is all about anymore for me with knifemaking as a personal quest.

As for ornery, who, me? :D I'll argue that all day long...... :rolleyes:
 
fitzo said:
Thank you, John! Nicest thing anyone's said to me all day! :) I'm waiting to see what IG says to me...plenty of fuel for a good fire here with all my fat!
:rolleyes:
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Damn!!!! Fatso I mean Fitzo. You got to much time on your hands. :eek: :eek:
 
Aw, c'mon George. Nothing better than "fatso"? Of course I've got too much time, George...I'm reeeee-tired. :D
 
fitzo said:
..............
I have such a hard time trying to decide whether to say something or not, I often just don't even make ANY comment. A recent incident on CKD Sheath forum pointed out that some people are simply fishing for compliments, and when they ask "any comments?" they don't really mean critique.
Click to expand...


Bingo! Ditto! :eek: :D
 
What good would a critique forum be? Most new makers that come here have basic membership, little money, or desire to get an upgraded account, plus they shouldn't get a "Knifemaker" membership till they are one, IMO.

Leading up to the fact that most of them couldn't post pictures if they wanted, and having other paid members hosting the stuff is against forum rules. :eek: :grumpy:
 
fitzo said:
Aw, c'mon George. Nothing better than "fatso"? Of course I've got too much time, George...I'm reeeee-tired. :D
Click to expand...
Dude!!! I'm Portugeese I got a headache after your first posting on this thread. What else are you smoking????? :eek: :eek:
 
Sorry, old man. I reread it and it makes sense to me. But, then, it ought to, right?? LOL

Sorry, too, but all I've been smoking is Merit Ultralights.
 
Hmm, lets see if this works...
Allen_Bolo.jpg


What good would a critique forum be? Most new makers that come here have basic membership, little money, or desire to get an upgraded account, plus they shouldn't get a "Knifemaker" membership till they are one, IMO.
Leading up to the fact that most of them couldn't post pictures if they wanted, and having other paid members hosting the stuff is against forum rules.
Click to expand...

Yup, it works. I'm not a paid member and I can post pictures, I just can't have them hosted here. There's a number of free hosting sites with variable amounts of annoyance associated with them, so money isn't an issue.
 
Nice thread -- Compliments are nice, but they sure don't help me make my knives better. I like the idea of something like the "crit pit." I could still see it turning into "happy talk." Maybe it could be section dedicated to only negative aspects. You post a knife and only negative comments are allowed. :D

You post a knife and get no replies, then you have damn fine knife!! :) :D
 
maybe run a pole?

AWP are you looking to be the first? :D if so,, better pictures first please :D I'd start with, what were used for tools and what were you looking for and how close do you think you came to what you set out to do?
 
I know I personallyw elcome the criticism, whether it's a knife I've made, a gun I've worked on, or a truck I've done a stereo system install in, wahtever. I also agree that you can't see as much from a picture as from real life. COurse, main thing that means to me, is that whatevre criticsism you might be able to find for a picture I post, pretty much guaranteed I can and already did find other problems that aren't obvious in picture, but are in the knife itself when I have it in front of me.
 
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