Constructive Criticisms

AWP are you looking to be the first? if so,, better pictures first please I'd start with, what were used for tools and what were you looking for and how close do you think you came to what you set out to do?
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I was just testing to see if I could post at all, since the post I replied to made it sound like it wouldn't work. I'm still newbie enough that I know everything needs work, once I get better I'd certainly like some fine tuning critiques and honest opinions when I try out some new style or finishing tecnique.

I'm game if you wanted to pick on it a little though, this one came out nothing like what I wanted to though I did learn alot from it. I wrote a long post about my experience with it here...

http://p222.ezboard.com/fprimalfiresfrm32.showMessage?topicID=40.topic
 
im a new maker (5 completed knives so far), and i have posted some of my things here, asking for comments, i for one want the negative comments, i like to hear what i screwed up on, what areas need improvement, and so on, hell i thought my last knife looked pretty good, and now that im finishing up a few more i see things i didnt see in the last one that me wonder what i was thinking when i thought it looked good :rolleyes: so i think it would be great to have respected makers honestly critisize my work,
 
I like what these new makers are saying, and I know they want an honest opinion. We all do, and we are the best critics of our own work, as you folks know very well. We know what it takes to be a maker, and it appears to me these new folks understand it as well as we do. We may be gentle with our comments, but they are honest comments, just the same time. We rave some about some of the knifes posted here, but they are honest raves, too.
 
The general point is that if we have a CRIT PIT all of our own, then it is assumed that you don't post in there if you're just fishing for compliments....that's what the Gallery is for....:D

ShopTalk = tips & techniques
Gallery = Show-n-Tell
Crit Pit = down-n-dirty

I think by having its own forum - we would be providing an outlet for those creativity-type comments...."Suggestions"


Doesn't have to be a mean place, or even a restricted area....just a place to go if you want an honest maker-to-maker reaction to your knives. I don't think there will be much traffic from knife buyers.
 
This is an idea I pitched to Kevin a year or so ago and at that time he wasn't interested.
We REALLY ought to push for this because it is very valuable to new and experienced makers alike.

People are very reluctant to offend a maker by critiquing there work. HELPFUL comments can save years of struggle for a maker AND greatly improve the quality of custom knifemaking in general.

I am guilty of this as well. Many times I have seen what was an otherwise excellant blade done with something out of proportion, seen where a blade could have improved dramatically by doing just a few tweeks here and there or obvious mistakes and never said anything because
1. Didnt want to offend
2. Didn't feel like getting BLASTED for doing so by other forumites

I for one really enjoy the attaboys but never gain the insite I am looking for on what needs to change.

For a truly HONEST opinion the only one willing to do that for me is my Chiropractor. Have known him for 15+yrs and he never hesitates to say ---Hey blades to thick---don't like the guard---thats nice but it would have looked better if you had done such and such.

This I respect and always come back with a better knife the next time!

So lets try this out: The pics posted by AwP
Nice Parang style, looks very useful and utilitarian
Could use something to keep the hand from sliding into the blade if it is used to stab something.
Perhaps invert the angle of the handle making it wider towards the Choil and adding some notches.

See that didn't hurt a bit:D
 
Would make sense to do this so the people doing the posts identities are kept secret.
Downside if it opens up a can of worms to Trolls.
 
As a new maker I think a crit pit would be great. I don't know any makers, I don't know any knowlegable knife people and I've never seen a knife being made. When I post a picture of my knives I usually ask for any and all comments good and bad. Compliments are encouraging and are greatly appreciated but I would also like brutally honest opinions, I know that it would help me to improve. Out of all the comments that I've received one person made a suggestion on what he thought would improve the look of my knife and that one comment got me thinking of other things that I could change for the better, I can imagine the help that experienced maker comments would be, that would be great!. I know that this type of sub forum in the makers section would benefit new and experienced makers to help get the creative juices flowing. Hopefully soon with this new help I'll feel comfortable adding "knifemaker" below my name. Dave
 
I like the idea of a technical support for new makers. Coments like I think the blade is too thick can be personal opinion. A "why" would be needed to go with a comment like the blade is too thick. I.e for slicing meat as in a butcher knife a thin blade slices through the meat with less drag. Alternatively for general purpose camp knife a thick blade gives more strength.

I have had a couple of blokes send me pictures of knives that were basically good working knives. However to my eye they could have benifitted by a couple of millimetres on here and taken of there to improve the line. I photo shopped the images to adjust the lines and sent it back. That is the kind of thing I would like to see because a picture can speak more than a thousand words. Even after many words some times you just don't get what they are saying untill you see it. I found that many years ago a very good friend and maker told me things a dozen times I just did not get it until I saw it.

I think the replied sould end on a positive note point out the mistakes first and end of with what is the best part of the knife.
 
fitzo said:
Sorry, old man. I reread it and it makes sense to me. But, then, it ought to, right?? LOL

Sorry, too, but all I've been smoking is Merit Ultralights.
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It is MR. Ole'man to you Sonny and you are lucky that I do not live closer because you would be smoking them Ultras from the other end. :mad: :eek: ;)
 
Well then its all about rules, right? I mean, Dan K has a great idea for there to be another forum, Crit-Pit, or whatever. But I'll have to say I myself am not in favor of more forums, because I feel the more forums there are, the more diluted the whole site becomes. Sorry, Dan. I like the fact all the knifemakers are concentrated here.

I want to be able to post my work here in this forum, because this is where knifemakers hang out. You all are my trusted colleagues. I respect your opinions and I hope you will respect mine.

So saying that its all about the rules, I ment its about decorum, and graciousness here. If I post a knife I want honest criticisms and honest praise for what is good. I believe Shoptalk is the place for that.

I look forward to seeing other people's work, because as Fitzo says, knifemaking involves study. I would expect honesty, but not in a malicious way. I think that if I posted a knife in shoptalk and someone said, "Man that thing is just simply gorgeous," and its a real P.O.S. then we aren't getting our necessary feedback are we? Would be much better to say: "Man, the style is nice, but but that gap between the scales and the bolster immediately draws my eye to it. Maybe install a new set of scales?"

So I believe in what an old friend said once, "You have to kiss 'em before you kick 'em!" In other words, offer some sound, honest advice, yes, but also try to find what is the goodness about someone's work too. Temper your caveats with qualifiers I always say.

Inversely, if I post a knife in the "for sale by maker" forums, I would really get upset if someone criticised my work there because that woudl interfere with my livelihood or essentially would interfere with my attempts to sell that knife.
 
Sparks, I can't add anything better or really different than the others. They've covered it pretty well. I know this has been hashed out before but since I like this board a lot, and I feel that large scale diversification will be detrimental to the participation and ultimately the quality of the board, I am still wondering why?

It just seems like taking a Corvette, shrinking it and putting an Escort body on it.

End of my .02. :confused:
 
I think you guys are trying to go into this with good intentions.

However, I don't think it would work very well.

First off, it's nearly impossible to give a good evaluation of a knife by a 2 dimensional photo.

I've seen MANY MANY post of knives where people go on an on about how wonderful it is, how it's the cleanest knife they've ever seen, how the guy should already be a Mastersmith, etc...and then see the knives in person and they are HORRIBLE.

A crappy finish can look like a really good one with the right picture.

Most things you can see in a photo are simply the overall aesthetics of a knife, and that's almost completely personal taste.

Yet even with all that said, I'm interested to see what transpires...hopefully it's not just a lot of hurt feelings and burned bridges. :)

Nick
 
most of this stuff has all ready been said so I'll trying to compile them..

Jeff
1, I agree, it should be done here in shop talk, for now at least.

2, Nick you are right for sure,
we'd have to comment on what we can see and only what we can see.
or ask for a better view of it.

3, I still think asking for comments from The makers of your choice would be best and that would stop or keep down any trolling.

4, positive crit is a plus.

5, now thinking about it, Bill said yes comments to your taste, this may be good if you can pick who you want to comment on it , if not asked, then it would be open for everyone's comment maybe?

6, I'm saying (and not sure if it would happen) but I wouldn't want a new guy
in making, tell me I should use Elmer's glue to use in the place of what I'm using now..he would really need to have had experience with what he is saying/using and has used both idems or just say I can't coment or don't coment.
reg shop talk is for that..

7, if done here ( in shop talk) I'd propose the same name for the thread,
like
for the week maybe?

Crit pit 6/14/2004-dan gray << dan gray's knife
Crit pit 6/14/2004-Bill B << Bill B's knife ,, so on
Crit pit 6/14/2004-Reg ELLERY

next week it starts over.

Crit pit 6/21/2004-jhiggins

8, maybe Kit could just sticky the currant week and see how it goes
rules could be posted as the first post of each weeks crit-pit

if it does well then maybe it could be up for a forum of it's own ??

9, style likes,,, maybe a vote on them,,

10,and if you don't want constructive criticism don't post your knives here.. :)

I or someone could just host a page for the rules to the crit-pit and that link could be posted as such in the first post.
just some I idea's ,,,,,
 
I see pros :) and cons :barf: for having such a "crit pit". However, I'll go along with the general consensus on this one, what ever that turns out to be. After I've been on this forum a while I may make my suggestions more known, but for now, you guys are running a top notch site IMPO, and I'm glad to be here.
 
Well I for one am against the crit-pit idea, if for nothing else than having some ease-of-use here on the Shoptalk forum. I want to be able to post a knife here and seek honest feedback from fellow makers, because those are the opinions I trust. If you open up a forum or even a thread labled to provide criticism, I think like Nick said it could hurt some feelings and people will stop posting their work. Isnt this what we are all about here?

Like I said, its about some rules of conduct in THIS forum, and to heck with the other forums. Maybe THAT should be what is stickied at the top of the page.
 
jhiggins said:
Well I for one am against the crit-pit idea, if for nothing else than having some ease-of-use here on the Shoptalk forum. I want to be able to post a knife here and seek honest feedback from fellow makers, because those are the opinions I trust. If you open up a forum or even a thread labled to provide criticism, I think like Nick said it could hurt some feelings and people will stop posting their work. Isnt this what we are all about here?

Like I said, its about some rules of conduct in THIS forum, and to heck with the other forums. Maybe THAT should be what is stickied at the top of the page.
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Jeff the problem is, here we are not getting an honest feed back
and the crit-pit would do just that, if someone had a problem with it
and just wanted ups then they would not post there
 
The whole problem with the "honest feedback" thing is that it's not happening now....why would it suddenly start to work in ShopTalk?

I say let's keep ShopTalk friendly and move the crit to its own forum.

The other idea is the "feelings hurt" idea....Part of making a post in the Crit Pit is the acceptance that you are gonna get feedback, positive and negative. If a maker can't accept that, then they'll probably never post there. Just putting up a pretty pic is what the Gallery is for.

I don't think that traffic in ShopTalk will decrease at all. I think there are a bunch of us who have been "holding back", wishing there was a place to let it all hang out and get some real design/implementation feedback. We would now have a place of our own to hash it out. And if some of the great-ones dropped by every once in a while and offered advice....even better!


Why not just give it a shot? If it goes to pot, Spark can always just shut it back down.


And, yes, there needs to be a "RULES = MUST READ" sticky at the top of the forum.


The other thing about "honest feedback" is that it will be readily apparent who's giving it and who's not. A post with a newbie telling you to use Elmer's would clearly need to be "salted"....:D


The first and foremost rule for the forum would be "Disclosure" - that is, disclosing upfront your skill level, intentions, and what you want criticized. If it's specific, I think it will make positive crticism easier on the rest of us.


And if somebody posts a real stinker....chances are, no-one will say anything anyway....so no harm done.
 
Interesting thread, in the past I have followed the idea that if I couldn't say something nice I wouldn't say anything. Constructive criticism is a art form and to pull it off and have someone gain insight from it needs some thought. You can't just say you don't like it, what do you not like and what works better.
What we are talking about here will help us all if we are honest as we have a habit of getting in a rut with our own work and style and need some inspiration to improve. As to there being a perfect knife others have said that there are none, I say that some are more perfect than others.
I think that this is a good idea.
Gib
 
I've been meaning to talk straight -up with you Gib about your knives.... they all look ....well....old and rustic..... :)
 
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