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Contrarian viewpoint on WharncliffsIf
- Thread starter Mark Spark
- Start date
I never said that. What I said is that I like the blade. I did not say I liked the knife or would use it for defense. But that blade is pretty nice in concept.
Here is a Cold Steel Mini Tuff Lite on a phone book. This is a very small knife with a short cutting edge.
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- Feb 2, 2020
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There's so many opinions, most based on theory, and not enough based on experience.
Here's some experience on the receiving end of a blade:
I personally have had to defend against a knife attack, unarmed. While I was successful in blocking the attempt to stab me in the heart, I did catch the whole knife from tip to heel in the arm while blocking. This fact did not register in my brain until after I disarmed and overwhelmed the attacker... it wasn't until he was running away where I finally felt the blood dripping down my arm.
In a mishap with a machete, I caught the whole blade across my shin and it was stopped by the bone. All I felt was the thud against my shin bone, no different in sensation than a pool cue across the shin
During a knife mishap while I was a teenager, my hand slid down a blade of a knife. Already bloody from the game i was processing, I didnt realize I had cut through tendons or even cut myself at all until I realized that not all of my fingers would close around the knife handle.
The point of all of that, is if you think you're going to be able to defend yourself with a knife, without extensive training, you're probably wrong. In most scenarios, the cut or stab wound wont register in the person's brain until after the fight.
If you simply stab a determined attacker, except for a few critical places, you're most likely going to just piss off the attacker and make him more determined.
Wharncliffe fighting knives such as the YoJimbo and YoJumbo are intended for a very specific defensive technique that involves slashing the wrists/arms of an attacker as they extend the arm to attack.
In that scenario, the strait wharncliffe edge helps to focus cutting power at the tip, so as to maximize slashing depth, in order to cut tendons, thereby rendering the limb useless in the fight.
Imagine I lunge at you with a weapon, you sidestep/deflect while also cutting my arm while its extended. Without a functioning arm, then what?
Michael Janich, the designer of the YoJimbo, has videos on YouTube about this subject if you guys are interested.
Here's some experience on the receiving end of a blade:
I personally have had to defend against a knife attack, unarmed. While I was successful in blocking the attempt to stab me in the heart, I did catch the whole knife from tip to heel in the arm while blocking. This fact did not register in my brain until after I disarmed and overwhelmed the attacker... it wasn't until he was running away where I finally felt the blood dripping down my arm.
In a mishap with a machete, I caught the whole blade across my shin and it was stopped by the bone. All I felt was the thud against my shin bone, no different in sensation than a pool cue across the shin
During a knife mishap while I was a teenager, my hand slid down a blade of a knife. Already bloody from the game i was processing, I didnt realize I had cut through tendons or even cut myself at all until I realized that not all of my fingers would close around the knife handle.
The point of all of that, is if you think you're going to be able to defend yourself with a knife, without extensive training, you're probably wrong. In most scenarios, the cut or stab wound wont register in the person's brain until after the fight.
If you simply stab a determined attacker, except for a few critical places, you're most likely going to just piss off the attacker and make him more determined.
Wharncliffe fighting knives such as the YoJimbo and YoJumbo are intended for a very specific defensive technique that involves slashing the wrists/arms of an attacker as they extend the arm to attack.
In that scenario, the strait wharncliffe edge helps to focus cutting power at the tip, so as to maximize slashing depth, in order to cut tendons, thereby rendering the limb useless in the fight.
Imagine I lunge at you with a weapon, you sidestep/deflect while also cutting my arm while its extended. Without a functioning arm, then what?
Michael Janich, the designer of the YoJimbo, has videos on YouTube about this subject if you guys are interested.
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You make a good point that slashing weapons through history typically had a curved blade. Those weapons were also much longer than the knives we carry in our pockets today. Cutting with a sabre is different than cutting with a 3-4 inch blade. I'm not an authority on edged weapons, buy I think that distinction is significant.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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- Dec 27, 1998
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- 11,668
As mentioned, different blade shapes work better for some "styles" than others. If you'll pardon the shameless plug, Mike studied many styles and eventually developed his own, based on stopping the attacker as quickly as possible. Mike's MBC moves are very efficient and effective, and I can recommend if the interest is there, his style is well thought out and worth studying. His style works best with a knife designed for the technique, which is a modified Warncliffe.
sal
sal
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- Feb 2, 2020
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- 335
For anyone looking to defend themselves with any kind of weapon, you're going to need insurance either to fight criminal charges and/or defend against lawsuits brought by the person you injured or killed while defending yourself. It's just the reality of the world we live in.
For that reason I'm a USCCA member and through them, I learned of Michael Janich because he does various training videos for them.
He's got a lot of credibility and from what I've seen, what he teaches makes sense.
For that reason I'm a USCCA member and through them, I learned of Michael Janich because he does various training videos for them.
He's got a lot of credibility and from what I've seen, what he teaches makes sense.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
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If you cut someone with a knife, you are going to jail. Whether or not you stay there depends on circumstance.
The first line of defense is not be there. The second line of defense is some type of non lethal spray, electrical defense. A blade should only be used when there is no other option. Just my opinion.
sal
The first line of defense is not be there. The second line of defense is some type of non lethal spray, electrical defense. A blade should only be used when there is no other option. Just my opinion.
sal
sgt1372
Platinum Member
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With all due respect, this is NOT necessarily true but you are correct: "It depends."
I've cut someone in self-defense w/a knife and did not go directly to jail. I helped that I am a retired LEO, was on the phone w/911 at the time reporting the person (who later attacked me) as a potential 647 (drunk & disorderly person), had a LOT of witnesses and video proving that I was attacked w/o provocation, did not inflict a "serious" injury in use of the weapon AND that I uttered the "magic words" to say that I was defending myself w/deadly force (the knife) because I was in "fear of
The attacker was arrested and went to jail. I have not been sued but I still have not gotten the knife back yet.
Reminds me that I need to contact the reporting LEO to see if/when I can ever get it back. That's also something to remember when choosing your EDC for the day. Don't carry any knife that you are not afraid to have confiscated if you use it (whether lawfully or not) in SD. So, in this regard, a CHEAPER throw away knife is better.
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sgt1372
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While (as noted above) criminal and civil actions are NOT an automatic result of using a deadly weapon in SD, having the necessary legal defense insurance to cover such incidents certainly is advisable, if there's any possibility that you might need it.
I seldom carry a gun any more but I get my legal defense insurance for the use of a firearm as a retired LEO through PORAC - the Police Officers Research Association of California - but it does not cover the use of a knife. You'd have to find a pre-paid legal services plan that includes "general" criminal defense coverage to get that. I (nor do many, if any people) have such coverage.
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USCCA covers any weapon used lawfully.
sgt1372
Platinum Member
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Good to know.
I've never actually checked to see if the PORAC coverage extends to knifes or other weapons used in SD. Will definitely look into that.
Michael Janich
Moderator
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- 257
Hey, All:
Very interesting discussion. What was particularly interesting for me was the video of Bill Bagwell demonstrating the difference between cutting with the belly of a blade and a straight false edge. When I attended the 2000 Riddle of Steel (and shot the Paladin Press video "Legacy of Steel"), James Keating did the same demo with a piece of cardboard. The belly of the edge bounced the cardboard away, but the straight-clip false edge "bit" every time.
That got me thinking. Since I'm not going to carry a Bowie-sized blade or a something double edged (both from a practical standpoint and based on legalities), why not carry a small, legal blade that basically replicates the function of the straight false edge? Basically, that is a Wharncliffe.
At that time, I had designed one knife for commercial production--the Masters of Defense Tempest. It had a Bowie-shaped blade because I believed, based on everything I had read and heard--that the belly of the edge made it cut better. Based on Jim Keating's demonstration, I began to doubt that--especially in a short, folder-sized blade.
By that time, my system of knife tactics (what later became Martial Blade Concepts, or MBC) had already evolved to focus on tactics that involved disabling an attacker quickly by cutting key tendons, muscles, and nerves. This approach is sometimes called "biomechanical cutting" and is something that I later validated with trauma surgeons and other medical professionals, including the International School of Tactical Medicine. Based on that approach to tactics, my goal was to determine how to achieve maximum cutting performance on MBC's soft-tissue targets (the inner wrist/forearm, bicep/triceps, and quadriceps) with a short, legal-to-carry blade. I had already begun incorporating "Pork Man" demonstrations in my training at that time. Pork Man was a target constructed by butterflying a 4-5-pound pork roast or pork tenderloin, tying it around a wooden dowel (which replicated bone), and wrapping it with about 30 layers of plastic wrap (which replicated the resistance of skin). The resulting target accurately simulated the resistance and basic substance of MBC's preferred targets, with the exception of the blood pressure of living tissue. Since this target allowed me to quantify cutting performance in a relevant way, it became the basis for my testing of various blade shapes.
I made a bunch of Pork Men (and fired up the grill and smoker) and methodically tested a full spectrum of blade profiles from my collection. The best overall performance I achieved was with Spyderco's early Centofante folders, which were Wharncliffes. Hawkbills like the Harpy also cut extremely well, but were awkward for thrusting and tended to "snag" on the dowel "bone."
Interestingly, when I researched the historical application of straight-edged blades, I found many excellent examples--the scramasax. the kampilan, many styles of navaja, etc. I also learned that many cultures renowned for their edged-weapon skills--like Japan--began with straight-edged blades and typically transitioned to curved edges when they introduced cavalry. The reason was that striking with a straight-edged blade from a moving horse imparted too much force into the cut and would injure the rider. Curved blades "bled off" energy, allowing the cut to flow through and leaving the rider's arm attached.
When it comes to self-defense with any weapon, training should be a priority. Once you develop skill in a particular set of tactics, you should also have a better understanding of what types of weapons support those tactics best. Theoretical discussions are always fun, but there is no substitute for training and empirical testing on relevant media.
Stay safe,
Mike
Very interesting discussion. What was particularly interesting for me was the video of Bill Bagwell demonstrating the difference between cutting with the belly of a blade and a straight false edge. When I attended the 2000 Riddle of Steel (and shot the Paladin Press video "Legacy of Steel"), James Keating did the same demo with a piece of cardboard. The belly of the edge bounced the cardboard away, but the straight-clip false edge "bit" every time.
That got me thinking. Since I'm not going to carry a Bowie-sized blade or a something double edged (both from a practical standpoint and based on legalities), why not carry a small, legal blade that basically replicates the function of the straight false edge? Basically, that is a Wharncliffe.
At that time, I had designed one knife for commercial production--the Masters of Defense Tempest. It had a Bowie-shaped blade because I believed, based on everything I had read and heard--that the belly of the edge made it cut better. Based on Jim Keating's demonstration, I began to doubt that--especially in a short, folder-sized blade.
By that time, my system of knife tactics (what later became Martial Blade Concepts, or MBC) had already evolved to focus on tactics that involved disabling an attacker quickly by cutting key tendons, muscles, and nerves. This approach is sometimes called "biomechanical cutting" and is something that I later validated with trauma surgeons and other medical professionals, including the International School of Tactical Medicine. Based on that approach to tactics, my goal was to determine how to achieve maximum cutting performance on MBC's soft-tissue targets (the inner wrist/forearm, bicep/triceps, and quadriceps) with a short, legal-to-carry blade. I had already begun incorporating "Pork Man" demonstrations in my training at that time. Pork Man was a target constructed by butterflying a 4-5-pound pork roast or pork tenderloin, tying it around a wooden dowel (which replicated bone), and wrapping it with about 30 layers of plastic wrap (which replicated the resistance of skin). The resulting target accurately simulated the resistance and basic substance of MBC's preferred targets, with the exception of the blood pressure of living tissue. Since this target allowed me to quantify cutting performance in a relevant way, it became the basis for my testing of various blade shapes.
I made a bunch of Pork Men (and fired up the grill and smoker) and methodically tested a full spectrum of blade profiles from my collection. The best overall performance I achieved was with Spyderco's early Centofante folders, which were Wharncliffes. Hawkbills like the Harpy also cut extremely well, but were awkward for thrusting and tended to "snag" on the dowel "bone."
Interestingly, when I researched the historical application of straight-edged blades, I found many excellent examples--the scramasax. the kampilan, many styles of navaja, etc. I also learned that many cultures renowned for their edged-weapon skills--like Japan--began with straight-edged blades and typically transitioned to curved edges when they introduced cavalry. The reason was that striking with a straight-edged blade from a moving horse imparted too much force into the cut and would injure the rider. Curved blades "bled off" energy, allowing the cut to flow through and leaving the rider's arm attached.
When it comes to self-defense with any weapon, training should be a priority. Once you develop skill in a particular set of tactics, you should also have a better understanding of what types of weapons support those tactics best. Theoretical discussions are always fun, but there is no substitute for training and empirical testing on relevant media.
Stay safe,
Mike
I have a great amount of respect for the late Bob Kasper. He reached the same conclusions as Michael Janich. Bob moved from Bowie's to smaller clip point blades and determined that for normal carry, the Wharncliffe had the most effect. His last two designs before his death were the Dragon fixed blade (customs by Wes Crawford, production by CRKT) and the Perseco which is a folding version of the Dragon (customs only by Wes Crawford). Dirk Pinkerton doubted the Wharncliffe until Michael Janich loaned him one to test. Now the Wharncliffe is Dirk's favorite (see his custom Wharning).
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Interesting.
While I consider my knife a Last Resort Self Defense Tool, I too started to think about what blade type was the most effective using a 'slasher' style.
Sort of became obvious that the Wharncliffe was going to be the most effective given all the power of the stroke is in the tip and no power is lost with the straight edge. Think which blade is more effective doing a vertical cut from the shoulder to the abdomen or a horizontal cut across the chest.
I currently have five Wharnies and two Talons.
Just seemed like the most destructive blades for what I needed them to do. Besides the talons, Wharncliffes sort of look benign as they don't look like 'real' knives.
After thinking a bit, I have a custom blade similar to a broke back seax coming in. Sort of an angular Wharncliffe/chopper with a stronger tip.
I'm also going to try another talon type blade based on the one I already have.
I kind of was a proponent of this type of blade as years ago I carried a serrated Spyderco Mariner.
Freddie Krueger knew what he was doing.
While I consider my knife a Last Resort Self Defense Tool, I too started to think about what blade type was the most effective using a 'slasher' style.
Sort of became obvious that the Wharncliffe was going to be the most effective given all the power of the stroke is in the tip and no power is lost with the straight edge. Think which blade is more effective doing a vertical cut from the shoulder to the abdomen or a horizontal cut across the chest.
I currently have five Wharnies and two Talons.
Just seemed like the most destructive blades for what I needed them to do. Besides the talons, Wharncliffes sort of look benign as they don't look like 'real' knives.
After thinking a bit, I have a custom blade similar to a broke back seax coming in. Sort of an angular Wharncliffe/chopper with a stronger tip.
I'm also going to try another talon type blade based on the one I already have.
I kind of was a proponent of this type of blade as years ago I carried a serrated Spyderco Mariner.
Freddie Krueger knew what he was doing.
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2020
- Messages
- 158
Thanks to everyone for the excellent information. It turns out I really knew little about the subject, explaining the disconnect. I have a much better opinion of Wharncliffs now.
This reminds me of a comment Lynn Thompson made. He said people didn’t understand the secondary point of a tanto . Since I for one didn’t understand the primary point, he’s probably right.
This reminds me of a comment Lynn Thompson made. He said people didn’t understand the secondary point of a tanto . Since I for one didn’t understand the primary point, he’s probably right.
Keep in mind that for many decades, people, often criminals, have used box cutters/razor utility knives as weapons. Mainly because they are easy to acquire and cheap, but they are also very effective, even though the blades are extremely short. Those are essentially Wharncliffe blades.
Jim
Jim
I always carry two or even three Spyderco’s. And the fully serrated G10 Harpy in my left pocket would be useful as a let go of me knife. But I mostly see my Spydies as tools that I use each and every day. I’m under no illusions about my 58 year old body being able to survive and win in some kind of crazy slashing knife fight against 1-3 younger attackers. If I’m “in fear for my life” against attackers, I’m drawing my CCW. I’ve been carrying one or two guns every time I leave the property for nearly 20 years now. I’m no hothead that draws a gun as a threat or something. If you are trying to kill me or a member of my family, I’m drawing that HK P2000 LEM .357 SIG and putting decades of firearms training into use... no way I’m going to draw the Manix when the HK is about the same reaction time!
G
G
I think an often overlooked factor is tissue compression. Soft tissue tends to move when pressure is applied. A cut from something that seems small and miniscule can be very bad when pressure is applied. Even a box cutter with a smaller blade can cause damage beyond its length. Push your finger into your arm when it's not flexed. This happens when slicing or thrusting.