Cooperation between forums: necessary and should happen more!

Jim March

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Oct 7, 1998
To all the moderators, owners and "regular folk", I'd like to say:

We're all one big happy...and dysfunctional, which is normal, family. Issues are gonna pop up on one forum that affect *everybody*, or in some cases need to get routed to "the other side". I posted a URL to a KF thread on the Camillus forum at BF, and it led to at least investigation of a potential safety problem.

That sort of thing will and SHOULD happen more, in both directions as needed. It shouldn't be seen as "favoritism" if there's a strong community-wide need to dispurse the info, and I hope everyone at all levels on both sides will cooperate in such matters.

This message is being posted to the main forums of both sites, to see how the thread is progressing on the OTHER side click here:

<a href="">Warp tunnel to the other universe

Jim March

[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 12 February 1999).]

I'm with you on this one.

I am well aware of the past differences with the various forums and sites. With the online knife community being split, everyone suffers. As my free time has become scarce, it is very hard to stay up to date on all the forums so, I am sure I miss many good threads. When relevant topics have been discussed on other sites or forums, posting a link to that additional info is much appreciated, by me at least. In a few threads, I have seen people walking on egg shells because a certain good thread existed somewhere else that the person wanted to share it but was afraid to mention that other forum or site. I look forward to the time when honest users questions can be asked freely with the responding audience being free to reference other sites, other threads, etc. without worrying about bad blood and a possible backlash of criticism.

long time member of several sites and forums
Yep. Besides, it's a good reason to do the FIRST EVER totally cross-forum thread

Jim March
Jim and Sid,
I agree. Thanks for the first step Jim. These divisions are not helping any of us. We can retain our loyalties and still disburse and learn and most likely enjoy it.
I second all of the above! I say open the lines of communication, it can only do everyone some form of good. We're all "family" when it comes down to our real interests at heart. Same interest forums should be able to speak freely about each other without feeling like it may offend (as stated above)! After all, why not share the wealth of information?
There are major differences between myself and Earl Stewart which, after the last few emails to a fro, will probably never be ironed out. However this should not be and most likely is of little or no concern to the members. At the top of each email from Earl was a note saying that he did not want to see his emails posted on the forum for all to see. I agreed and after some heated emails it would not be wise to post them anyway. I was pissed off by what he said and more so how he said it. However the jest of the messages going back and forth were to put an end to the forum war which actually does not really exist.

Earl and I were to meet in Atlanta on Wednesday during the Shot Show. This did not happen. I looked for him and was told he had already left. Oh well....

Anyway in my original email to him I stated that we should meet face to face and, regardless of the outcome, we should work together for the good of the forums.

This is the way it should be done as my differences with Earl should have no meaning or play a role at all in the forums. I left there because I felt there was a better way of doing things and BladeForums is the result. We are not and should not be viewed as a competing forum. That is not the case.

We do things different here and we created a completely different environment and atmosphere. If we were just a copy of KnifeForums it would not work.

The forums are a true extension of the personality of the owner. Those of you who know me and have met me personally know what I mean here. Am I right and he is wrong? Nope, if that was the case KnifeForums would have little or no posts. The fact is both sites are successful because of the differences. Some like it here better and some like it there. I am not competing for members here.

I have spent a lot of money building this site. I spend many hours working it per week as does Spark, and we do this on our own time free of charge. A lot of work goes into making this site but the key factor here is you, the member (or Junior member and one Whacko
). Without you this site is meaningless and pointless. I have been asked many times "Why are you doing this?". Well I don't have a really good answer other than I have actually created pastime for myself.

You see the owners of large companies do not really have much of a social life. At least not the ones I know. So this is my way of having fun and passing time while at the same time helping others enjoy the passion which we all share. Plus I really like helping people out. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside
Now that is cool I think.

The problem is when someone uses this type of site as an extension of their business it looses it's focus. It has happened before as evidenced by the failure of RDK and it may account for a few of the problems at KF. That's of course is just my opinion.

Now there are two huge resources of information on the web. Both are great places to be and the members cross over back and forth all the time even without the use of the Jim March Warp Tunnel

We even had a link on our links page to both Knife Forums and CFK&T and Earl asked us to remove them because he did not want to be associated with us in any way. That's fine, but I think it shows from which direction the problems are coming from and I believe it to be a bit childish considering the past events.

With Earl's permission I would like to link the sites directly. This is what I wanted to say to him at our meeting in Atlanta. The only people hurting from the fictitious forum war are the members. I have nothing to loose and everything to gain and so does Earl. He would get more traffic and since KF is an admitted extension of his business he would get more sales.

Also there is nothing wrong with Earl using KF as an extension of his business. I just think it's a bit hypocritical to not make that point clear. Especially when competing businesses are not allowed to post on the for sale board which used to clearly state that anyone can post. Several dealers can not even answer questions because they are banned. The really hypocritical thing about that is that when KF started it got most of it's traffic from the very dealers which are now banned by way of the button links that they were encouraged to put on their site. Then when it became apparent to Earl that the sites may be taking business away from him he removed the links pages, banned the competitors, deleted their posts on the "for sale" board and all of this without warning or the decency of a email. These very dealers still had the links up on there sites while all the while not knowing what was going on. That stinks and this is the first time I have said anything about it. Now you have to be a certified dealer to post there. Funny you will not see any discount dealers listed or any who sell competing products unless of course they buy from Earl.

I could just ignore the whole situation and let this thread go by but I wanted to make it clear that even though Earl and I have our differences, that should not effect you the Members and of course Whacko.

Many of you know I am on to speak my mind. This gets me into trouble sometimes but at least it is very clear to all concerned were I stand on an issue and that to me is more important. My own posting history is clouded with many fights about issues which are very important to me as an individual and a business. When I started this forum I thought that maybe I should step back and bite my tongue more often.

Well that sucks.

I have found that by arguing a point based on facts and showing it from my point of view the other person involved gets a better and more clear understanding that their actions effect more people than they think. It also allows me to know their true intentions when things get heated as the truth tends to leak out and the sugar coated version goes away rather quickly. And by mentioning things in this thread there maybe change at the other forum. Seems you have to virtually create a flame to get things done over there as evidenced by the events over the past few days and by the Cougar Allen Thread. That should not be the case but it sure appears that way.

I learn much more from threads which are based on some sort of argument than just the me too threads. They are also more interesting to read and get the most posts. Title a thread "LINER LOCKS RULE" and see if Joe Talmadge does not come in to share his view. Title one "BIG KNIVES SUCK" and of course Jim March will hop right in.

The only reason for closing a thread over here is it there are personal attacks or the thread gets WAAAAYYYY off topic.

TY, I am sure you are reading this and I have not talked to you since you asked me for my password so you could remove me as moderator of at KF. Word of advice, take a chill pill and stop locking down so many threads. So what if someone asks a question about Microtech in the general forum. It is the "General" forum and it gets more traffic and therefor more answers. If you are under the direction of Earl then this goes to him as well. Just a word of advice. It is your forum and you can run it as you please but I think I speak for the members who go to both forums in general here on this particular issue.

Now I have said a lot of things that some will view as a flame. That is not the case as I am merely pointing out my observations as a former moderator and member over at KF and here. Although I own and run this forum I am also member and would like to see things on both forums get better. Although I am not allowed to post over there, and the opinions I expressed above may not appear be any of my business, it is made my business when it moves over here or I get an email from a member about such issues.

So let's get all this crap behind us and move on. Earl let us put links on our site to yours to allow the free flow of information between the 2 forums. I have a ton of plans for this site that will knock your socks off and I would love for both forums to benefit from it. Punishing the members by not allowing the free flow of information is not good for either forum. However should you decide to not want to work together to achieve what we both state are common goals I will understand.

Actually No I would not understand.

Well gezz sorry for the rant have fun!

Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

I'd like to add the following to what Mike has said,

It's important to remember that we are making every effort to try to mend fences. Everytime that there has been a problem, we have been the one's trying to put forth solutions and work through it.

We've had our hand out for the entire four months we've been open, ready and willing to give assistance to whoever needed it. The unfortunate fact is that it can't work if it's coming from only one direction.

We've made the effort, and it quite simply hasn't been reciprocated. We've gone out of our way to welcome everyone and try to make them feel at home, and we've done everything in our power to try to fix the problems between us.

Unfortunately, there comes a point where it just becomes counterproductive to keep doing this. When one side is willing, and the other isn't, detente cannot be reached.

Are we saying that we are not open to finding a resolution? No, we aren't, because we will always be more than willing to forgive and forget, no matter what. But we are no longer going to spin our wheels unproductively, when we have so many other projects to work on.

We're open to a productive relationship. At present, the other site wishes to maintain their autonomy, and we have to respect that. When they are willing to join in on the community, we will welcome them with open arms.

I'd like for everything to work out in a pleasant fashion, and one can always hope that it does. Anyhow, you are essentially preaching to the choir here, since we want only the best for everyone!

Thanks for bringing this up, Jim, hopefully there will be some resolution to this.


Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for

Insert witty quip here
One point I've made elsewhere: if a thread needs to be moved the "warp tunnel thread gag" can make it fairly painless. That's not just aimed at KF, either, when BF was new there was a "Mad Dog versus Busse" thread in "Custom" that was stomped on because a moderator didn't consider Busse custom. It "killed the conversation". I use this to illustrate how a moderator who needs to do a "topic police" number can preserve the conversation flow at least somewhat with a "tunnel".

Sigh. In any case, there's still obviously some strong emotion running through the "split" issue. I hope it fades one day *somehow*, 'cuz I sure as hell don't have an answer. All I ask is that both sides realize that critical info regarding safety issues #1, and data that comes "from the outside and of interest to all" such as the Cassidy history posts needs to be spread cross-forum either through regular posts or "warp tunnels".

There's a limit of course as to how far such cross-links are appropriate. Certain subforums are the "intellectual property" of each side...classic examples, KF clearly "owns" the Good News forum, it's a *great* idea. BF owns Shop Talk, etc.

But...who "owns" the Spyderco forum, or the Himalayan Imports forum? I feel that "ownership" of the contents of these should go to THE MAKER/MANUFACTURER THAT RUNS IT. Treating it any other way is really a conflict of interest for EITHER "side". Truth be told, I'd like to see the UBB system support "miniforums", whereby let's say REKAT created their own one-forum "mini board" that could then be linked into the Bladeforums system so that it "looks the same as now" - but it could ALSO be linked into Knifeforums, and posters could see the whole REKAT forum regardless of their "point of origin". Forums like the main ones, Good News, my own Community, the political, tactical and other such would be seperate and each "major forum" would compete without regard for "how many manufacturers they've roped in".

From the standpoint of the manufacturers, they'd no longer be forced to "choose sides" and if one or even both main forums died out, they could "cast loose" their mini-forums and operate standalone if they had to, just as North American Arms today operates a small independent one-topic forum.

It would also be possible to use this technology to allow, say, knifeforums and gunforums to share a subforum of interest to both, such as Politics. Bladeforums has a "sister site" at The Firing Line, they could pull the same gag. My "warp tunnel threads" are a small thing compared to the giant wormholes this sort of "shared subforums" could create.

You'd want such "subforums" to take on the userlists of the major forums they're connected to, but that's no biggie. I hope Madrona Park realizes the extra market share in allowing such cross-links to work.

Jim March

I for one appreciate your efforts in this regard. I had been tipped off by Bill Martino that you would be lobbying for some mirroring after I e-mailed Bill to advise that I was still with him in spirit, but since I criticized Ty here on a Steve Harvey thread, my profile had been dumped making me an "unclean one" for KFC. But I'm afraid it will never happen for reasons Mike as alluded to.

Mike and Spark, you both have my continued support. I was the first to post here when Spark announced BFC during a chat. (DC started the first thread though to be fair
). I miss being able to post to forums run by Bill Martino, Joe Talmage, Anne Reeve, and Steve Harvey (hope I didn't skip anybody). These folks try as hard as our moderators here to promote a warm atmosphere of commradery and information exchange. But I have decided that I will not re-register there as I choose not to be potentially subjected again to that kind of infantile administrative action. Instead I e-mail those moderators privately to share comments when I feel it germaine. Everybody looses that way but when I'm told that I'm considered a valued contributor despite what I've posted elsewhere, that my profile must have become corrupted (hey I've been around hardware and software too long to buy just one entry in a database going south coincident with my criticism posted here), and that oh yes I could always re-register, I know when I've been bludgeoned. My 400+ KFC posts with indepth comments about a variety of products are gone forever as am I from that venue.

Unfortunately I see things continuing to a point where the majority of martial arts enthusiasts and the devotees of Kevin's work will be the only recognizable demographic segments left at KFC. Note I do not find any fault at all with those folks and their prime interests. They are fellow members of the worldwide community of knife lovers period and Kevin makes great knives. I just feel that it is sad and entirely preventable that the posting rate trend appears to have and is continuing to fall off in many forums at KFC.

I guess some will say I've already said too much so on that note I'll close.


I did NOT escape from the institution! They gave me a day pass!

[This message has been edited by bald1 (edited 13 February 1999).]
Jim, both Mike and I greatly appreciate your continued efforts to try to bring the knife community into one central location.

The simple fact is that due to software limitations, unless the seperate forums are all on the same server, a seperate site cannot draw from/post to the same "pool of knowledge" (in this case, the various forums). Messages posted here aren't going to echo there without some serious modification of the code running these forums, something that I, quite frankly, am unwilling to do in this circumstance.

The "miniforum" concept, while intriguing, ultimately would not work unless the manufacturer's then started their own forum setup after it was "set free". Therefore, they'd have to invest the time, money, and resources needed to maintain their own forum, and pray that they get the same traffic seperately that they got while a part of the larger "whole". Think hitting two main forums takes up a lot of your time? Think about trying to hit a forum on each of these manufacturer's: EDI, Spyderco, REKAT, Camillus, etc etc etc.

Shared subforums are a great idea, but, again, they have to be on the same server to work correctly.

Don't get me wrong, if we wanted too, we could easily transfer all of the messages from KFC to here (with their permission, of course), create appropriate forums for them, and go to town, but again, the likelihood of that happening is slim to none.

What I am saying is, should the situation arise, we could combine the two sites into one (though I'm not sure how we'd combine the similar forums into one subforum), it's just a matter of work, and willingness. We'd be more than happy to absorb and bring them on board, to help bring the community together, it would just have to be under our rules. The invitation is open.


Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for

Insert witty quip here
Sigh. Ya, I understand "independent crosslinked maker/manufacturer subforums" would have to come from the UBB makers.

This thread now has a *second* jump at the bottom of the KF General side over to KF Politics. Over there I raise some interesting questions regarding "who owns the maker/manufacturer subforums".

Spark, let me ask this: with the version of UBB you've got now, is it possible to "kick somebody out" of a particular subforum? Let's say Sal Glesser was sick'n'tired of somebody on his forum...could you block them there but leave them free run of everything else?

Jim March

[This message has been edited by Jim March (edited 13 February 1999).]
We currently have 5 levels of forum access with this software.

This is seperated into two main sections:

Completely Private - Read/Write
Restrict Viewing and Writing of Posts To Admins, Moderators and those who know Forum Password. We currently do not have any forums set up like this.

Posting Restrictions (With Viewing of Posts Open to All)
<OL>[*]Restrict Ability to Post (All Posts) To Admins, Moderators and those who know Forum Password. No forums currently set up like this.

[*]Restrict Ability to Post New Topics (But Not Replies) To Admins, Moderators and those who know Forum Password. This would be best used on a Press Release or Site Announcements forum.

[*]No Posting Restrictions - All Registered Users Can Post Messages. Most of the forum on are set up for this method.

[*]No Posting Restrictions & Allow Unregistered Users To Post Messages; Rec.Knives II is the only forum currently like this.</LI>

The only way to block a user from one forum is to make it either completely private, or set it to restricted posting with a password, which is useless because all it takes is one person to tell the blocked person, and the password has to be changed. So, it isn't efficient to try to block any particular person from getting into a forum, unless you want to make it completely private.

Hope this helps clear things up.


Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for

Insert witty quip here
Spark is at the mall buying some badly needed jeans from the GAP! So i will answer the UBB question.

The answer is unfortunately no. The control panel which runs this software does not allow for a person to be banned from an individual forum. It also brings us a point that why should someone be banned from only one forum. Shouldn't the rules apply to everyone? I understand the Nemo situation very well as he conversed with me about the issue. I have no idea why he talked to Walt that way as none of his emails to me were in bad taste. However that may be a seperate issue all together.

I think banning a member is and should be looked at as a last resort. People hold very strong opinions when it comes to subject near and dear and things are taken personally when ones integrity is called into question. That would border a personal attack here and would be looked at very closely. A situation arose on the Custom forums which we all know involved Les Robertson and Chris Reeve. Both had very strong arguements, stated their case and the thread eventually died. Now if it comes up again I will undoubtedly put my foot down as it would accomplish nothing. That issue has been beaten to death and I beleive we all now know what a custom knife is in the minds of several people. I talked with Chris and Les about it and feel that it is more a personal issue between them and should not be brought up here again.

Now to the topic again. Feel free to post links to KFC from our site all you want. If a thread is getting more attention over their then by all means keep the thread intact. I think that is your goal Jim is to keep a thread intact so readers do not have to bounce back and forth.

Many posters put a subject on both forums and then just sit back waiting for answers. If one forum gets more attention then the thread tends to stay alive at that forum and dies on the one not getting attenion. I don't think the "Warp Tunnels" will solve this as the person has to decide which forum to be the "post here" forum. It would show favoritism on the part of the member and that may make a already testy situation worse.

So what is better?
A post on both forums and a sit and wait and see which gets the best response?
A "Warp Tunnel" to make is easier to snap back and forth while following the action on both forums?
Or a "Post Here" link showing favoritism as to where the posts actually end up?

I think the answer is a combination. Post a thread and watch the response. If one thread is taking off and showing more promise and better answers to the original question then maybe a link (Warp Tunnel) should be made at that time letting the reader know that the same thread on another forum is getting to the meat of the subject faster.

What would not be good is to post a thread and then immediatley post a link to another forum were a similar thread is.

Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

Spark and I aparently were posting this at the same time. To further what Spark said, we will have a dealer forum which will be password protected. I will start it on March 1st.

Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!

Can I rant a bit? Thanks.

I think diversity is generally a good thing. Back in the hay-days of BBSes, there were ones that catered specifically to Christians and there were ones that catered specifically to adults looking for porn. Obviously, the two mixed like oil and water, but it was nice to know they were out there.

Anyway, I don't see anything wrong having two forums about knives. But it would be nice to bury the hatchet some day.

That being said, there is a reason why I frequent here exclusively. The way Earl handled Spark's situation has given me the impression that Earl's in it for the money. I understand. It's not personal, it's just business. People get burned, that's the way it is. And he's also deleted my posts about it. Fine. Even if I've never written anything good or bad about the situation, only asking to maintain clarity and balance.

Again, I understand his analogy perfectly: His house, his rules. I'm not slighted in any way. But, for myself, I prefer an atmosphere where I can talk freely and get to the TRUTH of the matter. So, I kind of have a problem in an environment where I know someone somewhere is manipulating the information to serve their own purposes. I believe in monitoring and moderating, but not like this.

That being said, I have made an exception for Thaddeus' Way of the Warrior forum. It's a topic I can not resist and I have faith in Thad's character. We'll see how that goes.

Anyways, great job on the site. FWIW, until you folks kick me out, or something stupid happens, you'll always have me as a die-hard regular.
Hey, why not. I'll post too.

[insert basically what has already been said]

I come here because of the atmosphere. And the only forum that i enjoy over there is Thaddeus's Way of the Modern Warrior.

Other than that, i can handle not being censored, and so will continue to post (lurk anyway) here.