Copy of description of Cutler's Pitch

ddean

ddean

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This was buried in a long & varied thread:
(http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/archives/g062001d.htm)
So I thought a copy of this one bit was best.

From: Thomas Powers <thomas_powers at my-deja.com> - Wednesday, 06/27/01 13:49:26 GMT

"My experience working with pine pitch: Last night I bedded my arrowhead knife's tang in a small deer legbone using pitch as the "epoxy". This is how I dun it:

First I collected pitch from a variety of trees, looking for the hardened stuff when I could find it over the sticky stuff. (One tree filled 1/2 of my collecting can from one spot!) No trees were damaged in the collection. All wounds were still well pitched after removal of excess.

Next I "cleaned it", put a 2# coffee can 1/2 filled with water on a fire (outside in the grill) and added the pitch (dropped the small can down into the boiling water and let it melt out and come to the surface. I skimmed it from the surface and put it into another small can with a "disposable" metal spoon now known as the "pitch spoon" (note: I dumped out any water that may have been included when I skimmed and let the can heat a bit to drive off any that had been trapped.)

Next was the weird part: to give the stuff a bit more body, strength and control some of the stickness I added PHD which as we all know stands for "Powdered Herbivore Dung", moose is "traditional" in the NT group but you gotta go with what you have so I took a few dried up rabbit pellets and baked them in a can (outside on the fire again) till they were slightly charred and then powdered them. Heating the pitch to a liquid consistancy I stirred in the PHD trying for about a 1:4 ratio and let cool. (traditional cutler's resin usually used chalk or brick dust as an additive)

Next evening down in the basement I taped the handle and the blade of the knife to prevent messing them up, (it's a pattern welded and etched blade and I didn't want to have to clean it and risk the etch!). Using a heat gun, (blow dryer on steroids) I heated the pitch, the tang and the handle (very carefully on the bone!) I had a long skinny hole to fill so I took some pitch and let it drip onto a plastic coffee can lid and when it was ok to touch I rolled some "snakes and dropped them down the handle and rammed them home with the hot tang. When pitch started to ooze out around the top I removed the "excess"; heated the tang and pushed it home keeping pressure on it while it cooled a bit. While it was still warm and pliable I cleaned off any stray pitch with my finger nail and "tooled" the bolster/handle joint.

I let it cool then removed the tape from the blade and handle and went over everything with WD40 to remove any tape or pitch stickyness

The blade is very solidly mounted---80's and in my shirt pocket didn't show any softening this morning. It also *is* removable just by heating the blade--in case it get's mesed up and needs a cleaning and a re-etch and the same pitch can be re-used to reseat it afterwards!

I would not suggest leaving it on the dashboard in the summer sun---but the bone wouldn't like that either...

smells a lot better than epoxy too!

My thanks to the NT folk who introduced me to this method and what PHD *really* means!
Thomas NTKA Bog Iron

Thomas Powers <thomas_powers at my-deja.com> - Wednesday, 06/27/01 13:49:26 GMT "
 
sounds very intrestin, couple questions.
how hot would it have to get before it was affected do you think. ???
it gets to about 50-60 deg celsius here in aus so was a bit worried by the heat aspect.:)
 
I saw something similar on ,I think, a "neotribal metalsmith" forum. Pinon pine pitch was said to be superior. Don't recall any used food ingredients. I guess an such an additive is to reduce brittleness?

Made me wonder if one could get a deal on broken rosin blocks for violin bows. That should be nicely refined and cleaned up. The larger the instrument, the softer the rosin. The stuff I recall for string bass was downright sticky. Cello and violin rosin crack and break if dropped. One could try mixtures to fine tune the consistancy.

I also saw what may be the ultimate--molten pewter.
 
I have a bit of pitch left over from rodeo days. I also have beeswax left over from waterproofing. I am ordering Carnauba Wax from Arizona.

A pound of pitch, 1/4 lb. of beeswax, and 1/2 cup of carnauba will be very very hard when melted and mixed the cooled. Deans idea with the heat gun is the best way to go grom what I can find out. I hope to find some of the old fashion waxed paper so I can make small pieces by dripping it on the paper. Then when cool it should come off in thin discs for use almost anywhere.

I find that the ingredients are a bit expensive but, it makes so much and will not be ruined if it hardens. The commercial stuff once mixed and not used is kaput.:D
 
Not my quote, just found it and
passing it on since many here
have expressed an interest.

Found it interesting that he just
uses the pitch and vegetable fiber.
 
Originally posted by firkin ....... I guess an such an additive is to reduce brittleness?
Click to expand...
That was my thought,to strengthen the resin.....
like fiberglass resin uses glass fiber, rebar in cement floors, etc

Made me wonder if one could get a deal on broken rosin blocks for violin bows.
Click to expand...
Thought of that but haven't checked prices at music store.
Also, as pappy noted, many sports may still use powdered rosin
in bags to improve grip.
For anyone interested in using the chalk version of Cutler's Resin,
I think Gymnastic supply may be the only place to easily find
real chalk. I think it's still real chalk. Pure Calcium Carbonate.
Or maybe Tums tablets, one of those antacids.

I also saw what may be the ultimate--molten pewter.
Click to expand...
There's a lead alloy that melts at a temp below boiling water.
Gunsmiths use one version of it to cast firing chambers for
some sort of measuring/fitting work. CerroSafe is one brandname.
Somewhere I have the recipe for one of these alloys.
 
Some may find the pewter better than the lead alloy if the knife might be used for food, especially if the metal is cast beyond the handle to form a bolster. Also, some older recipes for the lead alloy may contain a little mercury. (though amalgam tooth fillings appear to present miniscule or zero risk). I think I've seen mention that some of the knife-making places have a pewter, or at least something without lead for this purpose. I think a decent gas camp stove should melt pewter? I know it's no trouble to melt pure lead with one.

Another source of chalk should be stores that cater to rock climbers, as they often carry lumps of it in bags while climbing.

I've seen stearic acid or "stearate" (which might be a simple derivative of stearic acid or more likely just an inaccurate name because acid sounds bad), employed in recipes with beeswax to raise the melting point. Candle shops are said to sell it. (Hence avoiding the term acid--many dedicated candlemakers would be repelled) Stearic acid is derived from tallow, but when pure melts at around 160 deg F. Don't know if that's higher than pure Carnuba Wax.

Oh yeah, Federico once mentioned that jewelery-smiths use something known as black pitch that he has sucessfully used to handle knives. Art has told me that he looked into it and thinks it is rosin and powdered carbon and likely very similar to cutler's resin.

So many choices...

Let us know what you cook up Pappy.
 
And here is something snagged from a thread on the traditional knives from Valiant Co. regarding attachment of horn handles.
--------
Regarding the tangs, I received the following complementary information received by email from Mr Suwandi, the owner of Valiant Co (which is I must say a pleasure to deal with).

I post here what is relevant to this thread so far.

quote:

I may add some infos here. Our horn-handled blade is definetley much better in resistance against impact (compared to one with wooden handle), since the tang was barely red-hot when pushed to the limit into the handle (some powder of "ant nest" were added at the bottom of the drilled hole, in some cases we use Araldite). The horn will melt, fill the gaps in (similar idea to rubber-moulded handle) and permanently grip the tang. So, there would be no chance the blade comes out of the handle under normal use! (NOT abuse!). The only way to take the blade out is by heating the ricasso until blue-velvet ~ red color and knock the handle off.
---------

No pitch, sounds like a hotter and smelly operation.

*Powder of "ant-nest"*??? Maybe he means termite mound?
An exotic ingredient for sure.

Don't know what Araldite is a trade name for--Help us here Australians?

( http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210810 )
 
"quote:

Originally posted by firkin ....... I guess an such an additive is to reduce brittleness?

That was my thought,to strengthen the resin.....
like fiberglass resin uses glass fiber, rebar in cement floors, etc"

hmmm. Then why powder it? Seems something larger would be needed to get that effect? Maybe it just gets a tiny bit bouncy or rubbery?
 
"quote:such an additive is to reduce brittleness? " ",to strengthen the resin..... "

Then why powder it? Seems something larger would be needed
Click to expand...
Isn't concrete (with sand and pebbles) stronger than plain cement?
I guess if you think of microfractures, it doesn't take anything
too big to interrupt a fracture starting in the resin.
Like drilling a hole to stop a stress fracture in metal from extending.

I have thought maybe trying a thin cloth (on a flat) as the
supportive material. And I collected some all-cotten lint from the drying of my wife's new towels.
 
Good links ddean.

The pitch doesn't seem too expensive considering it may not be that easy to collect a pound of the nice clear hard stuff. Good to learn the right name too.

lapidary...I'd completely forgotten that.

Had a brief lapidary unit in shop in jr.high. But I think we used red or green wax in sticks. It was pretty easy to knock the stone cleanly off the wood handle with one sharp blow.

Any idea whether hard, med, soft would work best for affixing handles?

For some reason, I really like the idea of being able to to take things apart. Dunno why, I haven't needed to yet.

Have to think about the additives--carbon powder and chalk dust are pretty small, I think smaller than steel grain.
 
Originally posted by firkin .......Have to think about the additives--carbon powder and chalk dust are pretty small
Click to expand...
I don't know what's better,
but I noticed that the Woodcraft store locally carries
microballoon powder (just what the name implies) to use as
a filler for epoxy used in woodworking.
I assume these additives do not significantly weaken the
strength of the epoxy.

http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft...alse&mscssid=FF8332468687404FAA1A222EEFD75871
"System 3 Epoxy..........Fillers and Additives. The low viscosity of epoxy makes it a poor gap filler. Additives are necessary to thicken the epoxy and change its flow characteristics. Silica Thickener is a extremely fine powder used to create a very smooth, non-sagging, high strength mixture. Wood Flour, a very fine, filtered, wood by product is an excellent all around filler for creating glues and structural fillers. Wood Flour forms a coarser "epoxy" than silica thickener. Phenolic Microballoons are hollow, purple-brown phenolic spheres that are a great low cost, low density filler (ideal for areas requiring sanding). Wood Flour and/or Silica Thickener may be blended with Phenolic Microballoons to prevent sagging."

BTW:

Beeswax & Carnuba Wax
http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft...alse&mscssid=FF8332468687404FAA1A222EEFD75871

Renaissance Wax
http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft...alse&mscssid=FF8332468687404FAA1A222EEFD75871

----------------------------------

Does anyone know about hide glue?
http://shop.woodcraft.com/Woodcraft...alse&mscssid=FF8332468687404FAA1A222EEFD75871
I know nothing of it.
Since it is heated to use,
how is it different from pitch adhesives in use?
Does it stick to metal, or just porous materials?

And what about one of the 'industrial' strength hot glues,
in glue stick guns such as found in hardware & craft stores.
What would make it not acceptable for knife work?
 
If I remember correctly hide glue is made from horse hooves, and supposedly so is rosin. Or perhaps that was just the rumor that went around orchestra. They have it at the better hardware stores, but Ive not used it. However I was under the impression that to take apart instruments steaming instead of heat was involved. Again perhaps just more rumor.

Ive heard good things about Northwest pitch works but have never bought from them. The jewelers pitch Im using has two purposes. One is to hold silver when chasing or repouse, the other is to hold stones. There might be more, its been a while since I read up on it. A little pitch though goes a long ways, so it wouldnt be to expensive to buy a little and have some fun and experiment. My 8oz can was about $10, and Ive fixed quite a few items and have barely made a dent. I tend to use a little propane torch when working the stuff, just for ease. Doesnt take too much heat to get it to flow. Even a candle would work.

However I must say I had my first failure in a pitch secured knife. After a year of hard use the first knife I used pitch on came loose. Not a horrific failure, but enough for me to want to re-secure it. I just reheated the pitch, and it re-gripped. That being said Im trying to experiment to see if there are ways to improve the lifespan or gripability. In a few older knives Ive taken apart, there was a straw matrix in which the pitch was poored into. Im wondering if that adds more surface for the pitch to grip. Or if there are more additives that can be added to pitch. If I remember correctly while still pitch, jewelers pitch and cutlers pitch may be slightly different. Then again Ive not had too much of a brittleness problem with jewelers pitch as Ive heard can be had with cutlers pitch. Hmm...perhaps the guys at Northwest pitch works have advice. Ill try calling later in the week and see if they have any advice. That being said Ive found nothing quite as versatile and easy to work with as pitch. Just be careful its very hot when it flows, and you may end up doing the hot pitch dance as well.
 
hi Araldite is a trade name for two part epoxy mix,
it comes in couple different ways 5min Araldite. sets in 5mins
and 24hr Araldite takes hrs to set,then reaches full strength in 24hrs
i dont know what you call it over there ?? :)
 
ddean,

Microballons--I'd be worried about adding those. All the "empty space" is in one place, surrounded by a slick shell of minimum surface area. The other particles (including silica) have irregular surface and are porous. They may even absorb the hot pitch. Much better I would think. If the concrete analogy does hold, microballons don't look good. Rough rocks vs. hmm, basketballs say.

Hot glue and hide glue. Interesting. The pitch descriptions do seem to imply that the pitch has particular ability to stick to metal though. I guess a simple test to compare their metal-adhesive bond to that of pitch could tell a lot. They might need notches or through-holes in the tang to really grip. Extra work and there's the possiblility of weakening the tang.

Fed:

Good to hear from the guy with the experience. I'm pretty sure instrument rosin for bows is refined pitch, but I might now be curious enough now to try and look it up.

And thanks, Kendo.

Arldite is a trade/brand name that isn't in use here, at least I've not seen it. Many products are available that should be similar. Since it showed up in the company of powdered ant-hill, seemed like it might have been anything-- like powdered koala dung, for instance. :p
 
Here's a link to the recommendation of pinon pitch.
Mostly on collecting, but a little on use.

http://pub14.ezboard.com/fthecrucible26870frm12.showMessage?topicID=30.topic

There's also a thread on low-melting alloys.

Edit: that post is discussed on another forum as well:

http://pub42.ezboard.com/fcustomknifedirectoryforumfrm23.showMessage?topicID=1122.topic

discussion includes mention of hide glue:

"If you start with soft pitch it cures a wee bit tacky, but will dry over time. The hard pitch cures better. It is basically a thermalresin (glue). However, you can disolve it in rubbing alcohol, to make a varnish or glue as well. It will stick to metal, where as hide glue won't. It is the best for cultlers resin recipes. I use it straight when I'm stabalizing wood, like the cactus handles."

couple of questions answered anyway...
good stuff at this site.
 
Good discussion of cutler's resin here.

http://pub42.ezboard.com/fcustomknifedirectoryforumfrm30.showMessage?topicID=24.topic

a couple of recipes from thread:

"My mix called for 3 parts pitch, 1 part bees wax, and 2 parts moose dung."

and

"5 Parts Pine Pitch
1 Part Wood Ashes (Substitute moose or deer dung, brick dust, or powdered egg shells)
1 Part Tallow (Substitute beeswax or carnauba wax)"

powdered charcoal was also mentioned as an additive.

Here is a very definitive discussion of cutler's resin. Includes sources (new source..."brewer's pitch") 2nd link has a knife he made using it ; the camper model--name is Max Burnett

His recipe looks 'bout like Pappy's--
"1/2 lb of pine pitch, 1/4 cup of carnauba wax and approximately 1/4 lb of beeswax"

( scroll down, big blank after title)

http://blackpowderonline.com/cutlrsresin.htm

http://www.phoenixblades.com/max_burnett_line.htm


the brewer's pitch -- $7.00/lb, also pewter at $12.00/lb avilable at:
(why brewer's?? apparently because it was used to line wooden beer casks)
(scroll down page)

http://www.jastown.com/bulk/bulk.htm#bulk

Warning: one site noted that a black thermoplastic was recently used as a replacement and was called also brewer's pitch, so make sure it's the real stuff, like at the site above.

This site says that brewwer's pitch has had the volatile oils (turpentine) removed. It must be like rosin or hard pitch.

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/p/pine--34.html

chasing pitch:
http://www.tsijeweltools.com/benchtools/htmls/chasing.html


RE: Bow rosin for stringed instruments-- its refined pitch.
For a discussion and interesting recipe for making "dubbing wax" which is employed to make thread sticky and slightly stiff when tying fishing flys, look here. As expected the bow rosin costs mucho $$$.

http://globalflyfisher.com/tiebetter/dubbingwax/

Searched on chasing pitch--immense price differences $10.00-$60.00/lb.
and just identified as black pitch or chasing pitch. Wonder how many places make the stuff?

If you see this Fed, does yours bear a manufacturer's name and product #?

The properties of the black pitch this jewelery maker complains about may mean the black pitch is better for knives Than other chasing pitch? They want it to be somewhat easy to release the metal from the pitch--we don't.

http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive/200009/msg00158.htm

Saw a couple of forums where chasing people complained about the cheaper pitch being too hard when cool, too sticky and difficult to release, and requiring too high a temp to melt. Luckily, it seems to me those "defects" are just what is wanted for cutler's resin.

At least I learned what a knife handle with chase-work means.

I gotta find some flea-market knife worth re-handling and play with this stuff...
 
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