Copy of description of Cutler's Pitch

Thanks firkin

Now need to get these new one's read.

I wanted to mention that I found
Pine Tar and Venice Turpentine
at the local farm/vet supply.

Both are used medicinally for horses.

The tar is black and sticky, and
(surprised me)
the Venice Turpentine is traditional turpentine
(pure filtered sap) ---from Larch Pine trees---
It ain't Pinion, but I'm drying some at low temp
in the oven, then we'll see what can be done with it.
This link http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/p/pinela35.html
contains a caution that sometimes Canada Balsam is
substituted for --true-- Venice Turpentine.

----------------

Also discovered a product in women's beauty section
at WalMart
containing only: Gum Rosin, Beeswax, and Glycerin
........(? sound familiar ?)
4.8 oz Surgi-Wax microwave hair remover, made by Ardell

----------------
This site:
http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/p/pine--34.html
Contains an overview of Pine 'naval stores'.
Pine resins and liquids used commercially.
 
I got my pitch from http://www.bernieslapidary.com because they are located in my hometown. Their name for it is pitch black, and well I dont know if theyre making themselves or if thats an actual brand name. The color is black. They are chargin $16 for an 8oz can, and $35 for a 32oz. Like I said before an 8 oz can is a whole lotta pitch. It comes solid, and therefore must be heated to remove. It does sound a whole lot like the black pitch discussed in the thread before. A few comments. I noticed it dries differently depending on heat. Its not prone to cracking. However it does dry somewhat soft. Though I always viewed that as a good thing, as in more shock-resistance. The failure I had was the brass ferrule coming loose off the handle. Which in the design of the knife is dangerous enough for me to want to redo. Like I said I dont understand why it happened, as the pitch still seems to be in very good shape, but will try to experiment. Perhaps grease or contaniments were a problem in proper stickiness. Or perhaps even the horn on the hilt. But then Ive had the worst time trying to remove pitch spills from wood, concrete, steel, etc... Overall though its a reasonable way to hold a knife together, and considering the knives Ive held together were big chopping knives, it would definitely work well on smaller knives. Would be interested in hearing more ideas once people start working on it. Then again like I said my failure was very surprising, and readily re-fixed with a little heat to cause the pitch to re-flow.
 
It will be interesting to compare our experiments
in Western cutler's glue with the commercial
Nepalese Laha, when Bill has a chance to get a bit
for us. By then we should have some 'best efforts'
to compare.
 
I'll bring some laha and magic stone back if I get over Christmas and that's looking like a go today but things can change in a second.
 
Fed, if pitch black is a brand name, whoever got it did pretty good, as it's my impression that it was/is(still?) a term for a family of pitch products. I gotta wonder if there's only one or two primary producers, and a lot of repackaging or reformulating goes on. I guess reformulating could explain the jewelry-makers griping about the cheap stuff.

"But then Ive had the worst time trying to remove pitch spills from wood, concrete,steel, etc..."
---This I like to hear. :)

ddean, Interesting stuff at the vet.

RE Surgi-Wax: hmmm... dunno if the glycerin is good... Another case where easy removal is desired. Might be OK if more rosin or pitch is added. BTW, I won't ask why you were looking at that, if you don't ask about "Marline" :)

And I remembered something I've used called Apiezon W. It pretty much resembled an old-fashioned hard licorice stick. When heated, it melts and is intended to permanently seal ground-glass joints in laboratory vacuum equipment. Also works on metal/glass joints. Of course, in this case, the vacuum and high surface area precision fit help. All their products are excellent and maybe the best available for the intended use. It sticks to glass and metal, which is promising. Don't know what it's made from, but probably has some petroleum products considering the rest of their line of high-vacuum and stopcock greases. Expensive.

http://www.apiezon.com/wax.htm
 
Originally posted by firkin .......RE Surgi-Wax: ......., I won't ask why you were looking at that, if you don't ask about "Marline"
Click to expand...
Actually...............

I found the product listed on the web first,

Then looked at various stores in hair-removers.

Now.......about "Marline"................:rolleyes:
 
Seems to me somewhere I read of them using spider webs in the mixture. Then again, could have dreamed that after eating some hot tamales.
 
Dreams are good inspiration.

If not true it's worth a try.
Spiderweb being one of the strongest natural materials.

I'll have to try to find a melting point for spiderweb.
Silk too; similar but not identical I'm sure.
 
I got this from Al Massey, an experienced swordsmith. He made a leafblade for me:

"Besides the pommel holding things together, I'm using cutlers resin as well
under the wood of the grip. This is a very traditional way of doing things,
and the resin serves a multiple purpose- besides giving a great hold between
the tang and grip it serves to dissipate shock, and as well acts to prevent
corrosion. This is a mixture of pine pitch and beeswax."

In another email, he said:

The fittings, once in place and tightened down, had liquid cutler's resin poured in through the guard. As stated, this seals everything against moisture and serves to absorb shock. It also can be loosened by heating with a hot air gun..."
 
Telescope builders who grind their own mirrors use a 'pitch lap'

A pitch mixture (or modern replacement compound)
[same function as lapidary dop, stick somethng down while working on it]

adheres a flat glass blank to a holding surface
where the person then spends many hours rubbing
'randomly' at the surface to create a symetric dish.
 
And as mentioned in the tips thread by Yvsa & others,
there's the traditional adhesives used in archery & fishing poles
for mounting nocks and points, & ferrules and tip guides.

traditionally a rosin/resin/pitch mixture
 
firkin said:
"quote:

Originally posted by firkin ....... I guess an such an additive is to reduce brittleness?

That was my thought,to strengthen the resin.....
like fiberglass resin uses glass fiber, rebar in cement floors, etc"

hmmm. Then why powder it? Seems something larger would be needed to get that effect? Maybe it just gets a tiny bit bouncy or rubbery?
Click to expand...



There was a thread over in shop talk about adding the metal dust from a grinder to epoxy for added strength. Pete Nap (who I have great respect for) talk about adding ground asbestos to glue/epoxy, back before they knew its effects, because it would make the glue stronger and much more impact resistant. He said that the jagged nature of asbestos was how it helped to improve strength. There was general agreement that metal dust would be more then jagged enough for the glue to have extra area to grab and hold. This got me to thinking. I work with swimming pool stuff here in Atlanta. In a certain kind of pool filter you use something called Diatomaceous Earth (it can also be used as a pesticide). Here is a little thing about it.

"DE is composed of finely milled fossilized shells of minuscule organisms called diatoms. The microscopically fine, sharp edges desiccate the insects' exoskeleton upon contact and the pests dehydrate and die within hours. The insects also die when they eat the dust."



It is also used to filter water. Water is pumped through it and the sharp jagged edges catch anything that is in the water. Down to the sub 5 micron size here. I said allllllllll of that to say this. I would think that DE would be great to add to epoxy or resin as a filler for the same reason as asbestos. I would think that if you used clear epoxy it would turn out looking much like shiny bone or perhaps ivory (very,very fine pure white powder). I have some (many, many pounds) and have been meaning to give this a try but have just been very busy of late and it slip my mind until I read this. I will see if I can get a chance to mess with some this weekend. One word to anyone who tries this, if you get DE powder try your best not to breath in any of the powder. While not toxic itself, it is very unfriendly to the lungs. Thanks everybody sorry to be so long winded. Mark
 
Mark--sounds like a neat idea. Even if it doesn't make the epoxy stronger, it would still make for a good colorant for epoxy repairs on white bone.

If you mix some up, perhaps you could do some sort of test to see if it improves the durability. You could mix up two batches of the same epoxy, one without DE and one with, let both dry and then give them both a few taps with a hammer to see if one cracks and the other doesn't. Not very scientific, I guess, but it might give you an idea of whether it works or not.
--Josh
 
That is a good idea Josh. I also have some black epoxy dye. I think that it might make a good match to use on the horn handles both in color and feel. I will give it a try.
 
Diatomaceous Earth
can be natural/'raw' amorphous (non-crystaline) silica
and -relatively- safe to ingest or breath.

This is the type supposed to be used as insecticide;
even supposed to kill many intestinal parasites.

The DE type used as a pool/hot-tub filter medium has been processed
and is a crystaline silica.

Crystaline silica is -very- hazardous to breath or otherwise ingest.

here's a link that talks about DE source & forms:
www.safe2use.com/safe-products/diatomaceous/diatomaceous_Earth.htm

www.bullovedbulldogs.com/worms.htm
alternate site
64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:bBkUr...m/worms.htm+diatomaceous-earth+bulldogs&hl=en
 
Interesting, but the link didn't work for me...

Found this though, I suspect same info and a pretty picture:

http://www.safe2use.com/safe-products/diatomaceous/diatomaceous_Earth.htm

Seems they process fresh-water deposits different from saltwater ones. Use the stuff reccommended for gardens and one should be OK.

However, the crystalline stuff will be more like the asbestos that is mentioned (that's why it's hazardous)...dunno if that makes any difference. Since dried herbivore poop is supposed to work, probably not.

BTE, acetylene tanks are filled with diatomaceous earth--the acetylene is dispersed in the many tiny voids. A bulk quantity of liquified acetylene is quite hazardous and can spontaneously go off. Spreading it out in the D.E. prevents this.

The little plants grow some pretty amazing shells, check out these micrographs:

http://hjs.geol.uib.no/diatoms/Marbles/index.html-ssi
 
ddean said:
Diatomaceous Earth
can be natural/'raw' amorphous (non-crystaline) silica
and -relatively- safe to ingest or breath.

This is the type supposed to be used as insecticide;
even supposed to kill many intestinal parasites.

The DE type used as a pool/hot-tub filter medium has been processed
and is a crystaline silica.

Crystaline silica is -very- hazardous to breath or otherwise ingest.

here's a link that talks about DE source & forms:
www.bullovedbulldogs.com/worms.htm
Click to expand...



Of all the nasty stuff that I have to mess with I hate dealing with DE powder the most. Which is saying something since more then few pool chemicals could make a great (read scary) chemical weapon.
 
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