Correlation Between Experience, Skill and Value

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misterjuiceman

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I came across a thread on another forum, where in which a member was saying that a knife maker shouldn't charge $1000+ for a folder when they have less experience than guys who are charging $500 for a folder with similar materials. Do you think experience should be a factor in pricing a knife? Do you think a knife from an experienced maker is "more valuable" than one from a less-experienced maker? At what point does a maker's experience no longer add value to the knife? Do you think it's possible for a maker to just "get it" and be able to produce quality knives with little background in knife-making (but not necessarily less experience in machining or crafting items)?
 
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IMO, natural talent, skill and position in the market has much more to do with how much compensation a knifemaker is able to receive for his knives than experience.
Experience and a knifemaker's position in the market (or marketability) are two different things.
Experience is no guarantee of anything with the exception of sore fingers, hands, elbows and shoulders. ;)
 
Hey Misterjuice,

Easily 60% of all the knives currently available for sale on any forum, Any Show, any venue are over priced. Which is the "Main" reason they don't sell.

Age of a maker doesn't enter into it. You asked about "younger".

Perhaps you meant "new" maker.

I have been talking about a makers position in the market for 17 years. Nice to see Kevin incorporating that. Im starting to hear that more and more in conversations on the internet and at shows.

There are exceptions to market position...but very few.

Generally you see this with regards to "Fan Favorites" on forums. This will have little or nothing to do with a makers position in the market or their skill. And much more to do with how much you will "Suck" or how much your "Bro" meter will spike if you own one.

For the most part, talent, hard work, keeping abreast of trends (trying to be in front whenever possible), excellent custom service and utilizing multiple marketing avenues will get a maker to where they want to be.
 
Les Robertson said:
Hey Misterjuice,

Easily 60% of all the knives currently available for sale on any forum, Any Show, any venue are over priced. Which is the "Main" reason they don't sell.

Age of a maker doesn't enter into it. You asked about "younger".

Perhaps you meant "new" maker.

I have been talking about a makers position in the market for 17 years. Nice to see Kevin incorporating that. Im starting to hear that more and more in conversations on the internet and at shows.

There are exceptions to market position...but very few.

Generally you see this with regards to "Fan Favorites" on forums. This will have little or nothing to do with a makers position in the market or their skill. And much more to do with how much you will "Suck" or how much your "Bro" meter will spike if you own one.

For the most part, talent, hard work, keeping abreast of trends (trying to be in front whenever possible), excellent custom service and utilizing multiple marketing avenues will get a maker to where they want to be.
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I meant younger to mean they've been involved in knife-making for less time. I wasn't referring to age. I changed my original post to make it more clear.

In your mind, what makes a knife overpriced? Let's consider, for example, Scott Cook's Lochsa. He sells the "base model" Lochsa for around $600 (I think even less). I've seen these base models go for $2000 on eBay, which I personally have paid close to. If Scott Cook priced his Lochsa at $1300, for the base model, would this be considered overpriced, even if they still sell incredibly well? Is a knife overpriced when the demand for the knives begins to drop? Emersons go for around the same price at shows, but on average the cheapest NIB Emerson I see on a dealer site goes for around $1200. If Emerson charged this price, would his knives be overpriced?

edit: I'm also wondering what the difference is between a top market position and being a "fan favorite" on the forum. I would have thought that they'd be related
 
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^^ Good insights.

My first thoughts when pondering your question had to do with simple numbers: The more experienced maker may very well have hundreds (thousands?) of his proven knives already out there. His desireability has been fulfilled to many.

Newer maker with comparable quality (face it, with the learning curve so advanced nowadays, it's real), the lack of pieces availble and the 'new factor' plays a tangible role.

For collectors, it's not so much about useablity and function as it is about pride of ownership. Having something unique, new and built with quality, no matter how deep the experience level, may trigger a sale.

It's sharp testimony of the value of a maker to remain current and vibrant with fresh models and ideas.

Coop
 
Hi Juice,

In your mind, what makes a knife overpriced?
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The knife is not properly priced for the makers position in the market. The knife is over priced for the materials used. The knife is over priced because it is a "trend" knife. Trend knives usually start right after a maker (particularly at a slow show) runs around telling anyone who will listen that they "Sold out". They are then more than happy to share with every maker how they made the knife, etc.

Those makers who like to "walk down the path after it has been created" will come in and charge close to what the trend setter is getting. Mindful not to be too close in price. They can then pick up some of the left overs. This is especially true of folders. As folder collectors seem to want to get "all of them"...more so than fixed blade collectors.

You bring up Scott Cook and Ernie Emerson and are discussing "High Demand After Market" prices. This is where collectors will sometimes pay grossly high prices for knives.

That market is a whole different conversation/thread. As the rules, cycles and pricing are more volatile than any other market out there. This is particularly true in the tactical folder market. As well we are now starting to see this in the Loveless (and his type) after market. Every one...except one person I know of..:D thought the prices in this market would just keep escalating; and it will for some of the knives.

One of the smartest things Ernie did was not have his primary prices chase the after market prices. Ken Onion was very mind full of that as well.

I'm also wondering what the difference is between a top market position and being a "fan favorite" on the forum. I would have thought that they'd be related
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Yes, they can intersect...but generally don't unless they remain a fan favorite for several years...most don't make it that long.

Here you see several of the more outspoken forum members keep posting pictures of their favorite makers work. Possibly giving the impression that they are a forum favorite...when in fact they are more of a particular collectors favorite. Even though when a picture is posted many forumites "Oh and Ah" over the photo. Often by members who don't own one of that makers knives...but still appreciate it.

Forum Favorites often times arise from the ranks on the forum. New maker keeps posting pics, contributing to the forum in other areas than just their own. Often times friendships form and the maker starts to sell on a forum. An influential forumite may buy a knife and tout it as one of the knives to own.

Ask any marketer and they will tell you the best marketing tool out there is "word of mouth". Especially if recommend by a well thought of member! Pure Gold!

This doesn't mean that a Forum Favorite can't become a market leader. It generally doesn't happen that way.
 
I may be way off base here but I will take my chances.

I look at most custom knives the same way I look at works of art. It is not like the cost of gas or an ounce of gold where you can put a standard value and say one person is overcharging and another is undercutting the rest.

In my opinion the knife is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

As far as pricing by the maker. It is up to him how much he feels his time and creativity are worth. If someone wants the knife but feels it is too expensive, then they do not want it badly enough.

What I have seen in many fields is that person who is willing to pay the most, is the one who will appreciate the item the most. The person who wants to pay the least will also appreciate it the least and nit pick things afterward.
 
Great thread. I don't think you are off-base at all Mark. I think you nailed it. Knives are going to sell for what someone will pay for it. I had a sword once at a show for around $3500 and a guy came over saying that it wasn't worth $500. I asked if he would actually pay me $500 for it and he said no. That sword later won an award and lots of people came over and someone else bought the sword and told me he would have paid more for it. I realized that there are people in this world that wouldn't pay $100 for that sword and there are other people that would pay $10,000. It kinda blew my mind and made me realize that there really is not logical basis in reality for pricing unique one-of-a-kind art. I price my work at what I feel comfortable with. You will price your work at what you feel comfortable with. What more can you do?
 
When you are making and selling a product repeatedly, like a "standard model", it is a lot trickier than when you are selling "one-offs". One-of-a-kind pieces only require one buyer who is willing to pay "X" for it. So, what someone will pay for it is what it's worth. Michael did a good job of illustrating this in his post.

The maker who produces a design more than once , or, many times more than once, has to be far more careful when setting a price. There are a lot of customers who know what else is out there, know how to tell what is good and what is better, and how much similar products cost. Many makers, once they learn to make a good knife, look at the time and cost of materials and decide on a price that's probably too high (compared to what the better makers are offering) and too low relative to how good they think they are and the time they spent making it.
What they may fail to account for is they need to become more efficient, which takes time and practice. Eventually, they will be able to make the same knife faster, and, it will probably be better because their technique improved over time. If the maker focuses on being a better knifemaker, and works hard to improve, rather than focusing on profit, it won't be long until they are making better knives, faster, and selling them easier. The maker gets a bigger paycheck, and the customer gets a good knife at a fair price.
 
The cost of quality in any field of endeavor is exponential. To get something appreciably better usually costs 10 times as much. Production knives right now are at a very high level. Great steel, good materials, good workmanship and all available in a huge variety of models.

One guy looks at a Spyderco, Kershaw or GEC for $75 to $100 and says, "Why would someone pay $400 for a custom?" If you don't see it, you shouldn't spend it.

But the person who can see it, who does understand the extraordinary skill and experience it takes to get that extra 10-20% of quality . . . they know they are getting a real bargain.
 
Michael and RJ- those are two posts with far greater value than 99% of what I've read in this forum over the past few years regarding this topic. That this thread has spawned two extremely concise perspectives on two quite different aspects of pricing in custom knives, is amazing, and I'm grateful to have benefited from reading them.

Those posts are worth rereading a few times. VERY well said:thumbup:
 
Thanks Lorien, but I'm not selling you a sword for $100 no matter how much you butter me up :-)

So, here is another one: Was it last year that Bob Kramer sold a damascus chef's knife on eBay for $12,000? And another one for around $8000. No matter what you think about his knives (I like Bob a lot) this has just got to screw with everything you think you know about pricing custom knives. Granted this wasn't a regular sale, but it has to make you think a little.

Understand, I'm not being critical, as I hope we all can get to the point where people are throwing gobs of money at us for our art. And, for one-of-a-kind custom knives, we are talking about art - not tools. And look at the other art fields. My aunt is an average painter and she used to paint some medium-sized "thing", sell it for $1000-$2000, make a few hundred prints off it that she can also sell for $50 ea. It doesn't really have to make sense, it just is.
 
Hi Burl:

In my opinion the knife is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.
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An old and tired cliche. Ok...so what is that makes any item worth the asking price?

If someone wants the knife but feels it is too expensive, then they do not want it badly enough.
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Have to disagree with you here. First go back to your first quote.

Then I would suggest to you that the person you describe as not wanting it badly enough, may in fact be comparing the item to the totality of the market. With that understanding it is not about not wanting the item bad enough...it is about understanding that the item is not worth what the seller is asking.

Again, I refer you to your first quote.

So, is it that the item for sale is not sold because the buyer (who wanted it) didn't want it badly enough...

or the price was something he was not willing to pay for it?
 
Les Robertson said:
Hi Burl:
An old and tired cliche. Ok...so what is that makes any item worth the asking price?
Have to disagree with you here. First go back to your first quote.
Then I would suggest to you that the person you describe as not wanting it badly enough, may in fact be comparing the item to the totality of the market. With that understanding it is not about not wanting the item bad enough...it is about understanding that the item is not worth what the seller is asking.
Again, I refer you to your first quote.
So, is it that the item for sale is not sold because the buyer (who wanted it) didn't want it badly enough...
or the price was something he was not willing to pay for it?
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You are correct about it being an old and tired cliche. At the time it is what came to mind. I thought about this thread overnight and another thought came to mind about how I feel. A better way to put it would be:
The maker determines what he feels the knife is worth based on time, materials and how he feels about the finished piece. If a buyer agrees to the value placed on the item there is a chance they will purchase it. Otherwise the maker keeps the item because it is worth more to him than someone else.
 
There is no sane answer. Many people have called me insane for paying $680 for a Demko one-off, hell... I've been called insane by folks that don't know my buying habits ;) I think we're not thinking in the right mind when we make 90% (statistic totally made up) of our custom knife purchases.
 
Charlie Mike said:
There is no sane answer. Many people have called me insane for paying $680 for a Demko one-off, hell... I've been called insane by folks that don't know my buying habits ;) I think we're not thinking in the right mind when we make 90% (statistic totally made up) of our custom knife purchases.
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For the most part, I'm concerned about people who are in the market for custom knives, but scoff at makers who charge a table price of $1000, and flock to those who charge $500, or flock to these same knives on the secondary market for $1000. It seems that some people will be willing to pay $1000 on the secondary market, but not straight from the maker :confused:.

Who exactly is calling you insane over a Demko custom? Are they Cold Steel fans who view the knife as a more expensive version of their own? or are serious custom knife enthusiasts calling you insane? I can't imagine it's the latter, since Demko is a legitimate custom maker, and $680 for the knife that you received doesn't seem too bad at all.
 
I should have clarified... People who think a Buck 110 in S30V from the Cabellas catalog is overpriced... Those types say I'm crazy. ;)

As to the $500 vs $1000 as to table vs aftermarket prices... Knives are not an investment. Anyone who seriously thinks knives offer the same stability as blue chip securities is insane.
 
Charlie Mike said:
I should have clarified... People who think a Buck 110 in S30V from the Cabellas catalog is overpriced... Those types say I'm crazy. ;)

As to the $500 vs $1000 as to table vs aftermarket prices... Knives are not an investment. Anyone who seriously thinks knives offer the same stability as blue chip securities is insane.
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Blue chip securities don't offer the same stability as blue chip securities :D
 
Touché

Time to step outside utilize my custom lighter :smokin:
 
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