Correlation Between Experience, Skill and Value

[riderV3]

IMO experience doesn't guarantee a "better" knife, it means the knifemaker knows what he's doing and more likely to turn up consistent products.

 

[Kevin Jones]

It seems that some people will be willing to pay $1000 on the secondary market, but not straight from the maker .

It goes both ways.
Many collectors will pay a maker substantially more for a knife than they will pay on the secondary market, or they only purchase knives new, from the maker.

 

[misterjuiceman]

It goes both ways.
Many collectors will pay a maker substantially more for a knife than they will pay on the secondary market, or they only purchase knives new, from the maker.

That's how I am. If I can, I'd always buy from the maker. Sometimes it's tough for the in-demand guys, since most of their books are closed; I've been lucky enough to get a few direct, and I'd be willing to pay more to them than I would be willing to pay on the secondary market.

Another thing I've noticed is that the economy has decreased the demand in certain knives (well, all knives to some extent, some more so than others). Are these makers that are lowering their prices considered to have been overpricing their knives? Is the value of the top-notch knives invariant of the current economic conditions?

 

[ron_m80]

If you shop for what you like, buy what impresses you, and stay in your budget everything will turn out.

If you are literally drooling over something outside your budget, buying on credit, analyzing knives you have no interest in, and debating with makers over the worth of the knife as you see it, then your knife life may not be so enjoyable.

I would not argue with a maker over his knife prices, if you made something and priced it to sell and make a profit at least more than a few times in your life, you wouldn't either. I tend to haggle less than some people by nature. I simply won't buy what cost's too much for what I think it is.

I would buy alot of the stuff posted in the makers for sale area of bladeforums based on perceived quality and execution alone. The prices seem to be right for what the knives are nearly all the time. I don't think it's the knifemakers that have issue staying well grounded most of the time.

 

[misterjuiceman]

If you shop for what you like, buy what impresses you, and stay in your budget everything will turn out.

If you are literally drooling over something outside your budget, buying on credit, analyzing knives you have no interest in, and debating with makers over the worth of the knife as you see it, then your knife life may not be so enjoyable.

I would not argue with a maker over his knife prices, if you made something and priced it to sell and make a profit at least more than a few times in your life, you wouldn't either. I tend to haggle less than some people by nature. I simply won't buy what cost's too much for what I think it is.

I would buy alot of the stuff posted in the makers for sale area of bladeforums based on perceived quality and execution alone. The prices seem to be right for what the knives are nearly all the time. I don't think it's the knifemakers that have issue staying well grounded most of the time.

I've never ever considered, nor heard of, haggling over the price of a knife straight from the maker. Is this something that goes on at shows?

 

[Charlie Mike]

I've never ever considered, nor heard of, haggling over the price of a knife straight from the maker. Is this something that goes on at shows?

Me neither. That takes some nerve to try to haggle a maker down. Like you, I also like to buy directly from the maker. I've been in touch with Reese and DDR for years now. The only way to get the perfect knife usually ends up in a one off for me. I'd never imagine even asking for a military/vets discount.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Knives are not an investment. Anyone who seriously thinks knives offer the same stability as blue chip securities is insane.

Same old story. Collectors who don't take the time, don't know how and/or just don't want to treat knives as investments making blanket statements that they are not.
The investment aspect is just another part of the overall enjoyment of the custom knife experience for some collectors. And many do quite well at it.

 

[SharpByCoop]

More thoughts:

In rethinking this thread, part of what many consider value may be a form of assurance that if the knife needs service, even well into the future, the maker will still be around and will be responsive to communication.

Earlier I noted that a new maker can achieve a skill level equal to an established maker. What is still unproven is the long-term track record of the new maker vs. the established guy.

That's where the rubber meets the road.

Coop

 

[misterjuiceman]

More thoughts:

In rethinking this thread, part of what many consider value may be a form of assurance that if the knife needs service, even well into the future, the maker will still be around and will be responsive to communication.

Earlier I noted that a new maker can achieve a skill level equal to an established maker. What is still unproven is the long-term track record of the new maker vs. the established guy.

That's where the rubber meets the road.

Coop

I think that's part of it too. There's a particular maker who was particularly young (in age) and he seemed to make absolutely incredible knives, but now it seems like he's done with customs, which is a real shame. I'm wondering if that will affect the value of his knives, or maybe it'll increase it since there's less of them. Who knows!

 

[Kevin Jones]

More thoughts:

In rethinking this thread, part of what many consider value may be a form of assurance that if the knife needs service, even well into the future, the maker will still be around and will be responsive to communication.

Earlier I noted that a new maker can achieve a skill level equal to an established maker. What is still unproven is the long-term track record of the new maker vs. the established guy.

That's where the rubber meets the road.

Coop

I agree Coop, a maker's 'professional longevity' is very important. A prime consideration when I'm thinking of adding makers to my collection. Not so much for potential service but more for the maker taking his knives to higher levels and broadening his/her market position.

 

[Lorien]

I'm wondering if that will affect the value of his knives, or maybe it'll increase it since there's less of them. Who knows!

I bet it would affect the value of his work, but in the fullness of time, not in the positive. We only have such a small allotment of time here, that anything less than a full commitment won't even register a blip. And a full commitment is no guarantee either.

The way I see it, is there's short term value and long term value. And maybe medium term value there somewhere in between. The financial value is such a small part of it all, during so much of the cycle. For some, the financial value comes at the beginning, for others, very possibly beyond their mortal existence. For the rest, somewhere in the middle.

The other values involved, cultural ones, well I feel they are often of higher quality and more numerous with those whose work demands high financial value near the end or beyond their own life cycle, and who toil tirelessly through life for relatively little financial gain from their creations, in order to satisfy their passion for created things and work in whatever fashion they have to in order to keep that going.

Value to me is all about 'buying' low and 'selling' high, (although commerce is not required to appreciate the value of the thing). I guess I'm an 'end of cycle' kind of guy in that I generally look toward those who have honed their skill to a point where they can efficiently turn out knives and through their experience, show their commitment, (or vice versa). Their prices are more than fair because they fly under the radar of those who flock and engage in, almost purely, consumptive behaviour.

I have some nice knives made by those whose lasting impact may never register, but I have them because they are nice, I like them, they were made by someone known for producing high quality knives, and their price was lower than comparable hand made items of the same type at the time. I compared the price of them to knives whose makers continue to produce, but for my own reasons feel will probably not have a lasting impact. If it was 20% less than something similar there, then cha-ching! Their value to me, is that of being a sweet knife that I could afford to own. Period. They'll always be worth...something. Even after my life cycle comes to a close. Value to me has everything to do with quality. That a quality thing is affordable, well that lets me own it. That's value.

The real value for me can be found in growing and learning with these people who I perceive as having a real and lasting commitment to the Art of knifemaking, and encouraging their commitment however I can. To know that I played a small role in helping someone along who made an impact that I could never make, is the best payoff. To look back at some point in the future and smile at someone's success who maybe I helped a tiny bit, well that's priceless really. Or, I hope, will be

 

[misterjuiceman]

I bet it would affect the value of his work, but in the fullness of time, not in the positive. We only have such a small allotment of time here, that anything less than a full commitment won't even register a blip. And a full commitment is no guarantee either.

The way I see it, is there's short term value and long term value. And maybe medium term value there somewhere in between. The financial value is such a small part of it all, during so much of the cycle. For some, the financial value comes at the beginning, for others, very possibly beyond their mortal existence. For the rest, somewhere in the middle.

The other values involved, cultural ones, well I feel they are often of higher quality and more numerous with those whose work demands high financial value near the end or beyond their own life cycle, and who toil tirelessly through life for relatively little financial gain from their creations, in order to satisfy their passion for created things and work in whatever fashion they have to in order to keep that going.

Value to me is all about 'buying' low and 'selling' high, (although commerce is not required to appreciate the value of the thing). I guess I'm an 'end of cycle' kind of guy in that I generally look toward those who have honed their skill to a point where they can efficiently turn out knives and through their experience, show their commitment, (or vice versa). Their prices are more than fair because they fly under the radar of those who flock and engage in, almost purely, consumptive behaviour.

I have some nice knives made by those whose lasting impact may never register, but I have them because they are nice, I like them, they were made by someone known for producing high quality knives, and their price was lower than comparable hand made items of the same type at the time. I compared the price of them to knives whose makers continue to produce, but for my own reasons feel will probably not have a lasting impact. If it was 20% less than something similar there, then cha-ching! Their value to me, is that of being a sweet knife that I could afford to own. Period. They'll always be worth...something. Even after my life cycle comes to a close. Value to me has everything to do with quality. That a quality thing is affordable, well that lets me own it. That's value.

The real value for me can be found in growing and learning with these people who I perceive as having a real and lasting commitment to the Art of knifemaking, and encouraging their commitment however I can. To know that I played a small role in helping someone along who made an impact that I could never make, is the best payoff. To look back at some point in the future and smile at someone's success who maybe I helped a tiny bit, well that's priceless really. Or, I hope, will be

I'd have to say that he has definitely registered a blip, but I wouldn't want to go into more detail than that.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I think that's part of it too. There's a particular maker who was particularly young (in age) and he seemed to make absolutely incredible knives, but now it seems like he's done with customs, which is a real shame. I'm wondering if that will affect the value of his knives, or maybe it'll increase it since there's less of them. Who knows!

Short answer; the monetary value of his knives will most likely plummet over the coming years as being incredible will not be enough to sustain must less increase the value of his knives.

Very hard to tell about young knifemakers or young people in general, especially the very gifted ones. Anyone who has kids knows their direction or attention can turn on a dime.
I know of a particular knifemaker (under 20 years old) who I truly believe in another 20 years could be the finest knifemaker to ever live. His knives already rival some of the very best.

But then on the other hand, he could move on to watches, guitars or guns. Too soon to tell.

 

[Lon Humphrey]

I've never ever considered, nor heard of, haggling over the price of a knife straight from the maker. Is this something that goes on at shows?

i like it when a client haggles....it cuts thru all the bull$hit and gets to where we want to be....moving knives off the table!

 

[Les Robertson]

"Haggling" with a maker or even a dealer is of course the buyers prerogative.

The problems with a maker "haggling" are several.

1) If you do it once....the customer will expect a "Deal" every time.

2) If anyone is standing around...they too will now know they can get a "Deal" from the maker.

3) That word will get around (very quickly in the Internet age).

4) If someone bought a similar knife for full price...they are now pissed.

5) If they buy another knife from the maker they will expect even a better "Deal". As they need to get the same amount off from the previous knife and an additional "Deal" when they buy the next knife.

6) You have now "established your retail" prices at below your "current retail prices".

7) When you are at work, does you boss haggle with you every day asking you to work for less?

8) If you have room to "Haggle" you didn't price your knives correctly or you have no idea how much you have in that knife. Materials + Shop Expenses + Show Expenses (Table Fee, Hotel, Gas, Food, etc.) + your salary.

9) Enough haggling at a show and you will consistently lose money attending shows.

10) Business's with negative cash flow (not covering expenses with the knives they sell) eventually go bankrupt.

Still Want To haggle?

My answer when someone asks "if I can do better on the price"? They say "I had to ask" my response is "I had to say no".

90% + of the knives I sell are at the makers price. I inform potential buyers that I will not undercut the makers retail price.

If I find out a maker I am working with is undercutting their retail price. I stop buying knives from them. Why? See number 6.

If you think you are going to have to "haggle" to move knives off of your table. Then lower your prices and stay with them.

Exception...someone is going to buy 3 or 4 or more. 10% discount is in order.

Or on a large order...then of course you don't have show expenses. So the 10% would be substantially less than your show expenses.

When I am asked this question by Makers my response is always...don't haggle. Price your knives right and stick to your prices.

Oh, if you want to get to their bottom line that is great. Find out what they want to pay. If you want to get the order then tell them you can do a lesser finish, use brass for the guard, use G-10 for the scales. Whatever it would take to satisfy the customers price range. While at the same time not lowering your retail/table price.

More times than not they will not place the order and will just walk away. As they wanted a better knife for less money.

Or you take the time to educate that customer as to why you price your knives they way you do.

 

[Michael Rader]

I have to agree with Mr. Robertson on this one. Whenever I get someone who asks if, "this is the best I can do," I usually add $50.
-M

 

[rickmenefee]

I think Les drove the nail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If makers would read and understand this statement it will make them money. Overpricing kills most makers and once you go up if you come down you are screwed.

 

[misterjuiceman]

"Haggling" with a maker or even a dealer is of course the buyers prerogative.

The problems with a maker "haggling" are several.

1) If you do it once....the customer will expect a "Deal" every time.

2) If anyone is standing around...they too will now know they can get a "Deal" from the maker.

3) That word will get around (very quickly in the Internet age).

4) If someone bought a similar knife for full price...they are now pissed.

5) If they buy another knife from the maker they will expect even a better "Deal". As they need to get the same amount off from the previous knife and an additional "Deal" when they buy the next knife.

6) You have now "established your retail" prices at below your "current retail prices".

7) When you are at work, does you boss haggle with you every day asking you to work for less?

8) If you have room to "Haggle" you didn't price your knives correctly or you have no idea how much you have in that knife. Materials + Shop Expenses + Show Expenses (Table Fee, Hotel, Gas, Food, etc.) + your salary.

9) Enough haggling at a show and you will consistently lose money attending shows.

10) Business's with negative cash flow (not covering expenses with the knives they sell) eventually go bankrupt.

Still Want To haggle?

My answer when someone asks "if I can do better on the price"? They say "I had to ask" my response is "I had to say no".

90% + of the knives I sell are at the makers price. I inform potential buyers that I will not undercut the makers retail price.

If I find out a maker I am working with is undercutting their retail price. I stop buying knives from them. Why? See number 6.

If you think you are going to have to "haggle" to move knives off of your table. Then lower your prices and stay with them.

Exception...someone is going to buy 3 or 4 or more. 10% discount is in order.

Or on a large order...then of course you don't have show expenses. So the 10% would be substantially less than your show expenses.

When I am asked this question by Makers my response is always...don't haggle. Price your knives right and stick to your prices.

Oh, if you want to get to their bottom line that is great. Find out what they want to pay. If you want to get the order then tell them you can do a lesser finish, use brass for the guard, use G-10 for the scales. Whatever it would take to satisfy the customers price range. While at the same time not lowering your retail/table price.

More times than not they will not place the order and will just walk away. As they wanted a better knife for less money.

Or you take the time to educate that customer as to why you price your knives they way you do.

Thanks for the informative post. I have a few questions, though. This is probably a strange question, but when you refer to a maker's retail price, is this the same as their table price? Typically I find that dealers are much higher than a maker's table price, unless the maker is fairly new. Sometimes, for example, I find a dealer that will sell the production XM-18 for $385-$400, but other times, another dealer will sell it for $800 (and it sells!). Is the retail price of the XM-18 considered to be the table price? or is it a different price entirely?

 

[betzner]

I think Les drove the nail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!If makers would read and understand this statement it will make them money. Overpricing kills most makers and once you go up if you come down you are screwed.

Les is right on. And the lesson he teaches above is one makers need to always keep in mind.

Before the economic downturn when knife prices kept climbing, I remember one maker - famous worldwide - who just kept upping his pricing, trying to capture as much of the increase as he could. Of course, the increases in market value were because his collectors were in the market, creating that value within that secondary market. But he thought he deserved the market value, not the collectors.

Result - his best collectors left him. I was one of them.

Since the downturn in the economy, that maker's knives have lost perhaps 40% of their value.

Bob

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Juice,

Typically I find that dealers are much higher than a maker's table price, unless the maker is fairly new.

You are buying from the wrong dealer(s) then.

Hinderer's, Emerson's, Loveless"s, Onion's. Bose's (Reese and Tony) and other extremely in demand makers will be sold at a premium on Dealers tables sites and at their table. Too include me.

The other exception would be that if the maker does not give the dealer a discount. If that is the case....they will have to mark up their selling price.

If a collector has a question, contact the maker. Find out what the knife sells for and what their delivery time is. If you don't want to wait that long (understanding that delivery times are not in stone! LOL).

Then it is up to you to either wait or pay a premium (if there is one).

But either way you are making an informed decision on your knife buying.