Cougars, Kukuris, Kids

Just my two cents: if you see the big cat anywhere near your place shoot him with whatever you are carrying. If you kill it, great. If you wound it, (this sounds awful but) it will force the game officials to find and destroy it. No one should be threatened by wild game. In my state if they are a menace there is no penalty for destroying them. You just have to prove it. Even if you can't prove the menace or danger you can always pay the fine.
Sam Lippse
AKA Sammy nine-toes
Warthog Forge
Tucson Arizona
 
Look at the story of the old man and his wife that got attacked. She broke a ballpoint pen on it's eye and it didn't back off. You have to injure them enough to make them think you are badder than them. Personally, I'd shoot it.... a lot and then reload and repeat.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16817149/

This is some good info
http://ndnd.essortment.com/mountainlionat_rfem.htm
This one isn't going to make you feel better.
http://users.frii.com/mytymyk/lions/attacks.htm

On the African lions. My sister was on safari a few years ago and they stumbled on a lion in the bush. The guide said they had to charge the lion en masse or it would attack. They charged it and it ran away. Lucky I guess.
 
BTW, the volunteer survived with just a few scratches, but was in a horrific car accident a couple weeks later and was severely injured and has not recovered from those injuries(brain damage). Most of the time it's the common things that get you, not the exotic.
 
Ted, there's not a doubt in my mind when a cat has decided to stay it takes all hell to break him lose again.
And sometimes just a yell or a rock will take him off a victim. On "Hunter and Hunted" Discovery channel, they were following the cougar attacks in BC. A mother drove the cat off her little girl just by swinging a small backpack.
The ballpoint pen is astounding. I've always thought going for his eye would drive him away. I guess you cannot 'count' on anything regarding these cats.




munk
 
The stats on lions start about the time man had almost driven them out of his area.
There is a rise in attacks as the lions return to their historic areas, as development increases and decreases habitat. The link revealed lion altercations with men, the data ending in 1990. It would not surprise me if the attacks in the last 17 years equaled all, or were close, to the number of the attacks previous in the last 100 years.

That eyeball must have moved aside, and the woman bent the pen in the orbit of the skull. Her fingers could have dug it out. Gutsy woman.


munk
 
Sobering stuff Munk.

IMHO, a determined man with a Finn MN is not to be taken lightly.

Dead cat walking.

take care, and I will pray for the little ones.

Tom
 
Ted, there's not a doubt in my mind when a cat has decided to stay it takes all hell to break him lose again.


Well, I have found one other thing that seemed to work. We had a celebrities cat onsite for awhile and he was a big cat, about 180lbs, and pretty much used to getting his way. I was in with a trainer taking pics on day and he grabbed my camera strap. The trainer told me to go ahead and let him have it as there was no way to get it away from him. I'm not going for that so I grab the strap and start pulling back. I ended up lifting the cat into the air and slammed him into the wall. He let go and always kept a wary eye on me from that time on. I managed to become an alpha cat in his eyes and never had any trouble with him again. The trainer was absolutely amazed. The trainer was Craig Busch - New Zealand's LionMan, before he was famous.http://www.zionwildlifegardens.co.nz/

Craig is only about 140 - 150lbs and had never seen anyone throw a cougar around like that. LOL, I was about 280lbs and very determined to keep my camera. The cat was also declawed. I have a very healthy fear of medium to large cats with claws. As in, I don't work with them at all.:D
 
Darn Ted. If I've ever a camera strap that's yours by all means take it.

That's two great stories from you.
I like them very much.

munk
 
Well, I have found one other thing that seemed to work. We had a celebrities cat onsite for awhile and he was a big cat, about 180lbs, and pretty much used to getting his way. I was in with a trainer taking pics on day and he grabbed my camera strap. The trainer told me to go ahead and let him have it as there was no way to get it away from him. I'm not going for that so I grab the strap and start pulling back. I ended up lifting the cat into the air and slammed him into the wall. He let go and always kept a wary eye on me from that time on. I managed to become an alpha cat in his eyes and never had any trouble with him again. The trainer was absolutely amazed. The trainer was Craig Busch - New Zealand's LionMan, before he was famous.http://www.zionwildlifegardens.co.nz/


You have one of those cool photo jobs Ted :D... Need an assistant?

Munk, the thing that is scary is that the cat is frequenting places inhabited by humans and thus, seems to have lost his fear of man. That is why F&G destroys cats here and in SD when caught in towns... that and the area is too populated, so moving a cat would just put him into another cat's territory.

As GraverTom said... dead cat walking. As much as I hate saying it, the cat needs to go before he treats your home as a 7-eleven. At least not having small animals around (dogs/cats) won't attract him for a quick snack. I think you and the kids are more in danger of a chance meeting while out and about instead of being stalked for food. But a chance encounter can still be deadly.

Good luck.
 
Well, I have found one other thing that seemed to work. We had a celebrities cat onsite for awhile and he was a big cat, about 180lbs, and pretty much used to getting his way. I was in with a trainer taking pics on day and he grabbed my camera strap. The trainer told me to go ahead and let him have it as there was no way to get it away from him. I'm not going for that so I grab the strap and start pulling back. I ended up lifting the cat into the air and slammed him into the wall. He let go and always kept a wary eye on me from that time on. I managed to become an alpha cat in his eyes and never had any trouble with him again. The trainer was absolutely amazed. The trainer was Craig Busch - New Zealand's LionMan, before he was famous.http://www.zionwildlifegardens.co.nz/

Craig is only about 140 - 150lbs and had never seen anyone throw a cougar around like that. LOL, I was about 280lbs and very determined to keep my camera. The cat was also declawed. I have a very healthy fear of medium to large cats with claws. As in, I don't work with them at all.:D

I was a protection/police dog trainer for 25 years.
It's dominate or be dominated in the animal world.
I can walk in most vicious dog kennels and take them out on a leash.
I worked at a huge guard dog kennel with over 300 attack dogs and was not allowed to use a choke stick by the ex LRP Vietnam dog handler.
I was taught to mask my fear and use my body language to convey the message I was in charge.
I remember taking about 6 hours once to get up the courage to take this badass with a capitol B Georgia Bulldog out of it's kennel.
If you hesitate,you're dead.

Not speaking, animals have their own language based on body language.
Once you understand it and can use it with your own body, you can really communicate on the animals level.
 
Something that would work well from the defensive position would be a 12 guage riot shotgun. Load it with O or OO 3" mag buckshot. It should do the trick in a hurry.
 
We don't have mountain lions/cougars here in Southern Illinois. At least not according to the DNR. Despite that, I've spoken first hand with at least half a dozen locals who've seen one over the past couple years, and a lady I work with claims a family member has a picture of one taken with one of those game cameras (but I have not seen this picture to verify it.) I generally don't "worry" about them; just try to take prudent precautions like I would with anything else. Since I never step into the woods without some form of adequate armament anyway, this didn't require much change. I just look up at the trees a little more...

The only time I've really been concerned was when we took our little girl out (1 1/2 yrs old then) for a walk in the woods. Our hired hand had seen a cougar jump into the adjacent corn field the day before. At one point I was carrying my daughter and she started patting her thigh & calling "kitty kitty", like she does to call the house cats. My heart was racing for a few seconds as I strained to look for whatever cat she was calling. I never did see anything, but I guess that doesn't mean nothing was there.

_______________________________________________________________

Some general thoughts about subjects that we've touched on in this thread, many of which you guys probably already know-

Pistols can be about the best compromise weapon to carry, but their "stopping power" is seriously lacking, and it's very difficult to hit moving targets with them beyond very close ranges. Some tips to increase their effectiveness-
Practice. (duh! :)) Really, I'm not talking about shooting tight groups on paper here. Try hitting moving targets. Take a big coffee can or milk jug, give it a swift kick, and try to put a couple holes in it before it hits the ground. It's pretty humbling & frustrating at first. Be honest with yourself here. If you can't reliably hit this target from only a few feet away, I doubt the vitals of a running critter will be any easier. Try the same with a shotgun, and the result is a destroyed target nearly every time.
Head shots are not the same thing as brain shots.
If you can make the bullet travel the full length of the animal's body (ie., shoot straight on into the chest rather than broadside) this seems to greatly improve effectiveness.
If you're that close, press the muzzle directly to the critter's flesh. The fireball of gasses entering the body will increase a pistol's killing power by a HUGE amount. (you may also get splattered, but it's worth the tradeoff)
Don't worry about magic bullets. No hollowpoint, cast lead, whatever, can turn a pistol into anything more than a pistol. I've noticed that I generally get cleaner kills on smaller tough critters (raccoons mostly) with decent hollowpoints, but the differences are not dramatic, and would be hard to tell in any one given situation.

With blades, I've always found that a serious chopping blade has far more "stopping power" than pistols, given a decent blow. (at least with smaller critters) The problem of course is range.
If you're worried about hitting something you don't want to up by the critter's mouth, then by all means give it a good blow to the middle of the back or upper hindquarters. The spinal cord is actually less protected in the middle, because the spinal bones get taller on the neck. The hindquarters are the largest muscle groups in the body and are well supplied with blood. This can result in a bleedout just as fast as an arrow through the heart. In my experience the critter will then forget about whatever it was doing and turn to fight, which they can still do adequately even on 2 legs. But this is far preferable to reducing your swing's power in order to make a more precise cut in the neck or head region, or thrusting.
IF your blade has adequate cutting power, then cuts will always be preferable to thrusts. I don't know what the minimum would be for cougar. A good 15"-18" blade (not overall) can easily do some serious damage on a deer carcass or smaller critters though. This also gives you some reach, so you don't have to be as close to their weapons.
Your blade must be quick and sharp. My khuk wasn't near quick enough for my liking, so I reground it. I've found polished edges to work best on skin & flesh with a khukri, since it delivers a straight shearing cut. With straighter blades where you can add a bit of drawing motion to the cut, a coarser edge will be more aggressive & work noticeably better against things covered in fur.
Guess that's enough rambling for now...
 
I was a protection/police dog trainer for 25 years.
It's dominate or be dominated in the animal world.
I can walk in most vicious dog kennels and take them out on a leash.
I worked at a huge guard dog kennel with over 300 attack dogs and was not allowed to use a choke stick by the ex LRP Vietnam dog handler.
I was taught to mask my fear and use my body language to convey the message I was in charge.
I remember taking about 6 hours once to get up the courage to take this badass with a capitol B Georgia Bulldog out of it's kennel.
If you hesitate,you're dead.

Not speaking, animals have their own language based on body language.
Once you understand it and can use it with your own body, you can really communicate on the animals level.

Thats all so true, i realy like dogs, but if they attack me then theyll probably die, I dont mind them trying , they do what they think they should, ,its thier choice, thier honest in it. 20 years ago one nearly killed me when I was drunk but it spared me in the final bite, so respect due I then spared it to. It was in the right as well....I had known it for a while but after we became that much closer & accepteting & he helped save my arse more than once, after that.

I think its natural they understand that veiw of life, So even if trained not to, they choose to accept me instead, thats nature...

Mean Horses are the same some tell me?

Spiral
 
Thats all so true, i realy like dogs, but if they attack me then theyll probably die, I dont mind them trying , they do what they think they should, ,its thier choice, thier honest in it. 20 years ago one nearly killed me when I was drunk but it spared me in the final bite, so respect due I then spared it to. It was in the right as well....I had known it for a while but after we became that much closer & accepteting & he helped save my arse more than once, after that.

I think its natural they understand that veiw of life, So even if trained not to, they choose to accept me instead, thats nature...

Mean Horses are the same some tell me?

Spiral

I like dogs that test me as well.
If they can't stand up to me how will they stand up to someone willing to kill us both.
Many of the best dogs I owned I had to fight at one point.
After I won we had an understanding for life.
My method of training is called Mutual Respect.
I respect them if they respect me.
As the pack leader I require obedience.
Also as a good pack leader I'm required to be fair.
I like a dog who will defend it's self against unfairness even from it's own handler.
I find these make the best police dogs.

Back to wild animals quickly.
If you find yourself being stalked and have no means of escape.
Turning the tables and acting like a preditor insted of prey is a good bet.
Deer or rabbits don't charge mountain lions full scale.
If you have to fight anyway this is a good tactic to use.
Most non rabid animals will run.
In the wild an injury could cause starvation by not allowing an animal to hunt.
All wild animals have this survivial instinct.
Watch them fight,usually one quickly quits and runs away.
Something bred out of "to some extent" some breeds of dogs.
Dogs can fight for hours.
This is a man made trait.
 
Guns are good. I don't muck with theories when life and limb are concerned.
Fortunately, I can and do carry firearms legally.
 
Munk
I was reading someplace just recently that in India the hunters ware a mask . They where them on the back of their head. It seems that cats like to take their pray from behind and go for the throat. the mask confuses them as they think you can se them. In Ca they re recomending that all the joggers do this especially in area where cats have been sighted. The cat is looking for a easy meal not a fight. (halloween is coming soon and there should be some good and scarry mask around. The kids would love it.
Jim
 
Back to wild animals quickly.
If you find yourself being stalked and have no means of escape.
Turning the tables and acting like a preditor insted of prey is a good bet.
Deer or rabbits don't charge mountain lions full scale.
If you have to fight anyway this is a good tactic to use.

I think this will work in almost all circumstances. Several years back my wife and I were fishing on the beach when she caught a nice sized bluefish. As she reeled it to shore a large Rottweiler came from out of nowhere and ran towards the fish. Something must've snapped in me, because I ran full blast at the dog. It's not like we were starving and this was our only food or anything, but something caused me to act as if this were the case. When I got to about 10 feet from the dog and I wasn't slowing down he turned and ran as if he'd seen the devil himself. I don't really remember much from the point I started running to when I got to the fish. This only happened to me once before this - around 15 years ago I was driving to class with my roommate when someone ran a stop sign and broadsided my car. Next thing I know I'm about 2 blocks from the accident, standing over the driver of the other car who was on the ground and my roommate is pulling me from behind yelling, "stop, you're gonna kill him". I didn't remember any of it till that point. Scary stuff, but there's no doubt in my mind that we all have animal instincts buried deep within.
 
It took about a year, but the tigers figured it out.


munk

strangely they showed a wildlife film about big cats here last night with that on it, the indians were honey hunters in a swampy area east of calcutta and they lose a few villagers every year to tigers, the mask thing worked for a while but after they figured it out, it started again. they prayed a lot to the local goddess for her protection, but they apparently have now decided not to go into the swamps anymore. they mentioned there were 200 tigers in the area. sounds like the villagers got smart - the gods help those who help themselves....they should have used a hillary mask, the tigers'd still be running
hillmask.jpg


they also showed a sequence on russians hunting siberian tigers with dogs, they cornered a yearling & captured it alive by ganging up on it with forked poles and pinning it till they could tie it up (the doggies kept nipping it from behind :) ) they then hauled it out on a sled thru the snow - it was for a zoo.

another sequence on masai lion hunts (they didn't show an actual hunt tho). they did show a boer park ranger who walked up to two wild male lions in south africa, one lion hid, the other walked towards the unarmed ranger till they were about 5 yards apart & the lion stopped, they both did a bit of an advance, retreat for a few feet, the ranger lay down as if he owned the veldt, facing the lion & the lion couldn't handle it & turned around & left. apparently he does this a lot. his work mates feel his life expectancy is limited. it ties in with the above, a predator cannot jeopardise himself in a fight if he can avoid it, an injured hunter can't hunt & starves or is killed by others. just don't surprise one or act like prey or appear to threaten their babies....
 
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