Could a knife or sword be made that could cut iron bars

kaosu04 said:
A properly forged katana is much harder than your average run of the mill steel.
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It isn't that you could not press a katana though a piece of iron or low alloy steel, but it takes a lot of force to do so because even though the metal is much softer than the sword, it is still very hard and takes a lot of force to deform.

-Cliff
 
Well, and to be fair, the strongest part of most katana is the spine. The haman, the little curvey marking along the edge is a different version of steel. Some katana have tooth-like haman, so that a section could break without hurting the rest of the sword. In kenjutsu, you block and parry with the spine of the katana.

I've seen Katana go through cinder blocks, very impressive, but I'm pretty skeptical about a gun barrel. It might have been a freak divine intervention kind of happening...I mean, I've seen crazier things....but probably not repeateable. I imagine that if you could hypothetically use enough force with a sword that could handle it, the gun would just be knocked out of a guy's hands. I mean, that's a huge amount of force. But knocking the gun out of the guy's hands works well also. The gun would need to be laying flat, or better yet, suspended horizontally by a platform with nothing under the barrel so you could follow through. I imagine the blows would be glancing....I think it'd be hard to get the sword to really sink in.
 
The comment on the machine gun barrel being red hot and soft is the only plausible way I could see that happening. Even then I doubt the story.
 
Artfully Martial said:
Well, and to be fair, the strongest part of most katana is the spine. The haman, the little curvey marking along the edge is a different version of steel. Some katana have tooth-like haman, so that a section could break without hurting the rest of the sword. In kenjutsu, you block and parry with the spine of the katana.

I've seen Katana go through cinder blocks, very impressive, but I'm pretty skeptical about a gun barrel.
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The spine of katana are the softest part of the sword. The edge ("haman" as you call it, it is actually hamon, and it is the differentially hardened part of the sword) is the hardest part. It is not a different steel automatically, but can be. Japanese swordsmiths often, but not always, use a different piece of steel most frequently referred to as kobuse as the core. The tooth like part that you refer to is called ashi. Ashi are introuduced during the hardening process and are present so that a part of the edge would conceivably break off if the stress was too much on that part of the sword. Sort of like pre-scoring concrete in the event of an earthquake, so only that portion of the sidewalk lifts up, instead of the whole sidewalk cracking.

Historically, katana were made to cut skin and bone. As armour evolved, the edges were breaking, and in many cases, the whole sword cracked through, rendering the weapon useless. The differential hardening of edges allowed for a sword to bend before breaking, less catastrophic failure.

As was discussed ad nauseum over on SFI, introduced frequently by newbies fed up with playing their video games, a sword COULD be made to cut say, mild steel. This would be a purpose built implement that would not cut skin or bone very well at all. The edge geometry would resemble a somewhat acutely sharpened cold chisel, and it would be a very heavy implement. A sword like object, looks like a sword, doesn't really function like one.

The sword that Paul Champagne built for Toshihiro Obata Sensei to cut the kobuto (helmet) was made specifically for this task. It was significantly more sword than cold chisel, but the thickness of steel on the kobuto was considerably more sheetlike than bar like. Yes, the sword did not "cut" all the way through, but it did not shatter or bend significantly either. The shock to the head, it is thought, would have resulted in enough disorientation to finish the job.

The Buck Knives advertisement using a bolt to test the edge can be reproduced. I have personally cut 10p nails, and up to a 3/8" normal galvanized bolt with a number of knives. You do need to use a hammer, and have to go down into the cut straight. With a 3/8" bolt, it may require more than one hit. This is not to be encouraged, as the knives are not MADE to be used as bolt cutters, it is simply to demonstrate that they CAN be used in this manner. If you try it on anything steel that has been hardened to a certain point, your edge is going to break. It is a simple as that.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
part of the flats, and I AM A FRIKKIN SWORDSMAN, TOO, dude, tee-hee :p
We do Kenjutsu, as well.

If you blocked with the "strongest" part of the sword you would have a chipped edge. Some small degree of nicking or dinging in the spine would not cause catastrophic failure to the sword.

I have 2 Paul Chen Katana, a Fred Chen Katana, and tanto, a Howard Clark 1086M Wakizashi, and a Gunto Katana.

And you?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I think you're misinterpreting....there is a difference, to me, between the strongest and the hardest part of a sword. The strongest, as you pointed out, is the spine. Like I said.

I have a bokken. Red oak.

It's well used.
 
No way in this world can any sword cut through 5" of steel cable. If you had any experience making them you would know this is akin to Dork Ops marketing.


Steel cable is drawn through progressivly smaller tungsten dies. It may start off about 5mm and go through a set of about 6-8 dies depending on the machine and the material. What you end up with is essentially super forged steel wire. Other times they go through shaped dies. Imagine you have 100 strands of spagetti. Hold them upright and there are small spaces between the strands because they are all round. Some cable is cut like a jigsaw piece so that when they are twisted together there are no spaces, its essentially a flexible solid bar.

Considering the steel I used to work with(Bridge cable) that was 4.98/03mm would hold 40t on a single strand before failure and would wrap around its own diameter 5 times before breaking wasnt any particular super material. I really have no faith that the cutting demo is legit.
 
There's a lot of talk about edge parrying vs. flat parrying on more dedicated sword forums. Also the ARMA website if you do western sword arts. Essentially, both flat parries and edge parries exist in proper forms, although that all goes out the door if you find yourself in a weak position and the only thing you can do to avoid being slit open is to put your sword between yourself and the other guy. Don't forget that many swords across cultures are made with specialized areas along the blade - with sharpnesses designed for specific tasks. Western fortes and ricassos are prime examples of this. Most form-based parries are designed to redirect the opponent's blade, rather than simply stop it, in any case.

Ashi in katana basically introduce "lines" of softness into the hardened edge - they can (theoretically) improve the durability of an edge by introducing a measure of toughness, without decreasing the hardness of the edge overall. They could certainly prevent crack propagation, but I don't see how they'd actually promote the chipping out of certain zones. If that happens, the blade is trash. Period.

Toshishiro Obata Kaiso also talked somewhere about historical Japanese warriors dulling their edges on mounds of sands deliberately before battle - to make them more resistant to damage when facing armored opponents. Slashes against armor would be followed by thrusts. He also (despite the kabutowari demonstration, which, as Kohai999 mentioned, was done with a specially made sword) strongly discourages the use of targets harder than bamboo. Why? Because swords are designed to cut people, not railroad spikes.

Kohai999 - do you practice Shinkendo, by any chance?

(Back on topic) - Can swords cut through soft metal? Sure. But depending on the relative hardnesses and the size of the target itself, you're not going to do it without greviously (probably fatally) injuring the sword itself.
 
knife saber said:
There's a lot of talk about edge parrying vs. flat parrying on more dedicated sword forums. Also the ARMA website if you do western sword arts. Essentially, both flat parries and edge parries exist in proper forms, although that all goes out the door if you find yourself in a weak position and the only thing you can do to avoid being slit open is to put your sword between yourself and the other guy. Don't forget that many swords across cultures are made with specialized areas along the blade - with sharpnesses designed for specific tasks. Western fortes and ricassos are prime examples of this. Most form-based parries are designed to redirect the opponent's blade, rather than simply stop it, in any case.
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That was the reason that I pointed out that ideally, the spine AND edge are used, (in a best case scenario), held at a particular angle, the edge of an opponents sword basically slides down your sword, increasing your ability to deflect, and follow through with a cut/thrust of your own, due to inertia.

knife saber said:
Ashi in katana basically introduce "lines" of softness into the hardened edge - they can (theoretically) improve the durability of an edge by introducing a measure of toughness. They could certainly prevent crack propagation, but I don't see how they'd actually promote the chipping out of certain zones. If that happens, the blade is trash. Period.
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I produced my statement on ashi based upon a walk through lecture given by Leon Kapp at the Yoshihara Nihonto exhibit at the Pasadena Asian Arts Museum last month. Yoshindo explained to him that ashi allowed for small chips to be localized to specific areas. It was not to say that the sword would be perfect if this occurred, it was to say that this helped keep the sword from breaking.

knife saber said:
Toshishiro Obata Kaiso also talked somewhere about historical Japanese warriors dulling their edges on mounds of sands deliberately before battle - to make them more resistant to damage when facing armored opponents. Slashes against armor would be followed by thrusts.
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That would make a lot of sense, but I had not heard that before.

knife saber said:
Kohai999 - do you practice Shinkendo, by any chance?
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No sir, I am shodan under Masayuki Shimabukuro in MJER Iaijutsu, studying for the last 5 1/2 years. Paul Champagne is a good friend of mine. I live in Southern California and have been fortunate enough to know James Williams, Tony Alvarez, Nathan Scott and sundry other luminaries of the sword world. Do you study Shinkendo? Do you happen to know Tom Walter or Jens Luckman?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
If you go to many metal shops, you'll find a tool called a "shear" which is essentially a sword that cuts metal.

Several things are true: First, shears are only for cutting soft metals. If the iron bar in question is hardened, then no. Second, shears have limits on the thickness of the material they can cut. But, if you go to industrial facilities, you can find shears cutting inch+ thick stock... big shears. Third, shears need a lot of power behind them. For small shears, this can be acheived from manual power with leverage using a long handle, but larger shears are hydrolic.

Die-cutting and stamping are other examples of processes where a knife of sorts cuts thorugh metal possibly iron. It's always limited to softer materials, it's usually limited to relatively thin stock, and the machines get rather serious as they get at all large.

A classic sword to cut substantial iron bars is probably not possible. But something like a machette might be possible with a heavy, thick blade that you could really swing and put some power into.

Anything is possible.
 
Could a knife or sword be made that could cut iron bars
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Maybe if you could shoot it out of a gun barrel at 2700 feet per second yeah. ;)
 
Gollnick said:
A classic sword to cut substantial iron bars is probably not possible. But something like a machette might be possible with a heavy, thick blade that you could really swing and put some power into.

Anything is possible.
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Francis Boyd made a "Drying Rod" sword about 10 years ago. This beast of a sword had like a 3'+ blade and a 3' handle(yes, it was about 6' overall), weighing over 7 lbs. That implement cut into metal 55 gallon drums with no edge damage to speak of. It did not however cut THROUGH the 55 gallon drums. I saw the sword and the pictures of the damage produced, and it was very impressive. When I asked him about katana cutting through machine gun barrels, he snorted, and asked me if I wanted to buy some beachfront property in Florida, and implied that I might still believe in the tooth fairy. ;)

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
I produced my statement on ashi based upon a walk through lecture given by Leon Kapp at the Yoshihara Nihonto exhibit at the Pasadena Asian Arts Museum last month. Yoshindo explained to him that ashi allowed for small chips to be localized to specific areas. It was not to say that the sword would be perfect if this occurred, it was to say that this helped keep the sword from breaking.

No sir, I am shodan under Masayuki Shimabukuro in MJER Iaijutsu, studying for the last 5 1/2 years. Paul Champagne is a good friend of mine. I live in Southern California and have been fortunate enough to know James Williams, Tony Alvarez, Nathan Scott and sundry other luminaries of the sword world. Do you study Shinkendo? Do you happen to know Tom Walter or Jens Luckman?
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With regards to ashi, I think we've got the same idea. From the "toothing" statement earlier, my understanding was that the chips you describe would be entire chunks of hamon, bordered by the ashi lines. Obviously this diverges from your statement, so I apologize for the miscommunication.

As for Shinkendo, I'm basically starting out. I've done enough reading that I feel ready to take on the burden of learning. I live in New York City, which is not a wasteland for JSA, but doesn't offer California's variety. Shinkendo is what's available to me, so I shot over to the dojo for a viewing session. I hope to be able to devote as much time as you have. I don't know any sword VIPs, I've only talked to one or two people involved in the art.
 
knife saber said:
With regards to ashi, I think we've got the same idea. From the "toothing" statement earlier, my understanding was that the chips you describe would be entire chunks of hamon, bordered by the ashi lines. Obviously this diverges from your statement, so I apologize for the miscommunication.
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No worries on the miscommunication, even in face-to-face conversation, dealing with a subject as complex as this, there is often need for clarification to statements.

As an example, Mr. Kapp said in his formal lecture, prior to the walk-through, that tamehagane would produce steel for swords that was on par with any of the steel produced today. Bainite L-6 comes to mind as clearly superior, but, chances are quite strong that Mr. Kapp is not familiar with swords of this material, as his primary interest is Nihonto only.

knife saber said:
As for Shinkendo, I'm basically starting out. I've done enough reading that I feel ready to take on the burden of learning. I live in New York City, which is not a wasteland for JSA, but doesn't offer California's variety. Shinkendo is what's available to me, so I shot over to the dojo for a viewing session. I hope to be able to devote as much time as you have. I don't know any sword VIPs, I've only talked to one or two people involved in the art.
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Good luck in your studies, if you are sincere, you will learn a great deal about yourself. It is not a burden, it is a challenge, embrace it! As you continue your studies, new people and new (old) swordfighting concepts will come into your life, sometimes when you least expect it.

When I started out, I just wanted to become more knowledgeable in swordsmanship. I just kept going, and learning. I am by no means an expert in metallurgy, nihonto, or swordsmanship. I am, but a humble(maybe) student (really) continually striving to learn more. I just get p.o.'d with the same myths continually being perpetuated, and try to share my education whenever possible. That is a responsibility you cannot avoid.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thanks for wishing me luck, I'm hoping I can devote a lot of time to it.

I'm kind of surprised at Mr. Kapp's statement - most American smiths acknowledge that modern mill steels are mechanically superior to even the finest examples of tamahagane... Japanese smiths being legally limited to the stuff, I expect they stay relatively silent about it, but I've heard rumors that modern stuff "falls into the mix" sometimes. And then there are the historical smiths who used foreign steels... My favorite smith is thinking about a honsanmai blade with tamahagane sides and modern tool steel core and edge steels - sounds really interesting.

Even with just the reading, I think I've come a long way in appreciating the depths of swordsmanship - kind of like a first-time skydiver who gazes long and hard at the ground below before actually jumping. But nothing can actually describe the "jump" itself.

But enough thread-jacking from me. :)
 
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