Could and would ZT do a OTF?

There is something to be said about having a quiet dignity and making your products speak for you. For whatever problems they may occasionally have, the build quality on KAI products has been shockingly good for the price you pay. I've had really good customer service experiences with them when I need help.

Both sides say the other started it, I don't know who to believe, but both sides went on the offensive which makes them both guilty. While it does make me feel good when they are civil to one another, as competitors they are going to bicker and squabble all the time. My biggest concern is that I get taken care of when I need something.

I say let Microtech have their fair share of the OTF market, it's their niche and they've been doing it for a long time. If they fail it's their own doing.
 
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I’d buy one...

I have no experience with Microtech, but I have played with those Recon Tactical pieces and they’re really good, especially for the price I’ve seen them retail for.
 
kylemiller said:
ZT showed up to a trade show with an OTF that looked a lot like a Microtech Scarab. Microtech went on the offensive and got inspired by one of ZT's designs, the 0777. They were able to get that to market pretty quickly in the form of the Microtech Matrix. Lawsuits were had. Both companies showed their asses. ZT decided not to clone the Scarab and now we have the Chinese Natrix line and the Launch series. So in the end, we all lost. We lost the 0777, the Matrix and ZT OTFs.

Oh and KAI kinda now owns the rights to any visually exposed liner locks and prints the patent number on the lockbar for the Knockout, Bareknuckle and Natrix's. So there's that too. A company that makes it's hay using the Reeve Integral Lock without even a wink, prints a patent number on a painted chinese lockbar.
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Aight...

Inspired? Think ya meant stolen there homie. And usually stealing allows for the stealing party to produced what they’ve stolen...cuz u know, no work needed to do aside from say “check this shit out”, hence the quick to market situation. And as far as lawsuits go...pretty sure MT decided to sue and that didn’t turn out very well for them. Frivolous lawsuit that was decided so by the legal system. I mean, it was pretty publicly posted everywhere when they sued...until it died and everyone kinda forgot they were mentioning it.

As far the the patent on sub frame locks...not sure you know how patents work. KAI owns the subframe lock...so since they’ve been stolen from before, wouldn’t you think it behooves them to indicate what’s theirs? Wouldn’t you if you could? I mean, unless that kinda stuff is cool witcha...

And Reeve Integral locks without a wink? So the frame lock that EVERYONE is using from Instamakers to all these nifty Chinese companies everyone likes buying from now, they all use frame locks but KAI is the one who should be frowned upon cuz they protect their intellectual property. Yep...that makes perfect sense.

And where does all this equate to the Launches? Cuz I’ve searched all over the place and I don’t see the correlation...
 
I would image OTFs in general to be a risky endeavor for any knife company to dive into. I was talking to a BM rep and he said after the the otfs made there way to the public they now represent 95% of the warranty's sent in. People actually expect a knife to work for the conceived lifetime of the product and OTFs in general fail in that respect. He also said the prices that OTFs demand are not because of the quality or materials, but the projected warranties:confused: ...think about that...
 
metsfan said:
Aight...

Inspired? Think ya meant stolen there homie. And usually stealing allows for the stealing party to produced what they’ve stolen...cuz u know, no work needed to do aside from say “check this shit out”, hence the quick to market situation. And as far as lawsuits go...pretty sure MT decided to sue and that didn’t turn out very well for them. Frivolous lawsuit that was decided so by the legal system. I mean, it was pretty publicly posted everywhere when they sued...until it died and everyone kinda forgot they were mentioning it.

As far the the patent on sub frame locks...not sure you know how patents work. KAI owns the subframe lock...so since they’ve been stolen from before, wouldn’t you think it behooves them to indicate what’s theirs? Wouldn’t you if you could? I mean, unless that kinda stuff is cool witcha...

And Reeve Integral locks without a wink? So the frame lock that EVERYONE is using from Instamakers to all these nifty Chinese companies everyone likes buying from now, they all use frame locks but KAI is the one who should be frowned upon cuz they protect their intellectual property. Yep...that makes perfect sense.

And where does all this equate to the Launches? Cuz I’ve searched all over the place and I don’t see the correlation...
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Is this an April Fool's Day response? It says you posted 3/31 so I can't be sure. Are you really defending KAI from the mountain of moral highground in the realm of intellectual property? Just glossing right over the Zcarab? Not even a month ago they released the 0308 with no Ken Onion markings. Guess putting a hole under the pivot and taking out the recurve makes it their design now. Oh the subframe lock. Do you think KAI really invented the sub frame lock or used lawyers to claim ownership of it? I mean, there are microsoft fans out there who admire the admire the creative litigiousness they used in the 90's, but no one really respects them as inventors. Their ""contributions"" to society came in form of clever legalese. While much less successful, I think that's the only lens that you can admire KAI through in 2020.

As far as printing patent numbers on painted Chinese lockbars, well there's nothing illegal about it. Hell, in 2020 that type of behavior is the norm in America and many other countries. But it still reeks on a personal level. It's kitchy. There's no confidence there. Ernest Emerson didn't litigate the wave. Chris Reeve didn't print patent numbers on his integral lock. The products stood for themselves.
 
kylemiller said:
Is this an April Fool's Day response? It says you posted 3/31 so I can't be sure. Are you really defending KAI from the mountain of moral highground in the realm of intellectual property? Just glossing right over the Zcarab? Not even a month ago they released the 0308 with no Ken Onion markings. Guess putting a hole under the pivot and taking out the recurve makes it their design now. Oh the subframe lock. Do you think KAI really invented the sub frame lock or used lawyers to claim ownership of it? I mean, there are microsoft fans out there who admire the admire the creative litigiousness they used in the 90's, but no one really respects them as inventors. Their ""contributions"" to society came in form of clever legalese. While much less successful, I think that's the only lens that you can admire KAI through in 2020.

As far as printing patent numbers on painted Chinese lockbars, well there's nothing illegal about it. Hell, in 2020 that type of behavior is the norm in America and many other countries. But it still reeks on a personal level. It's kitchy. There's no confidence there. Ernest Emerson didn't litigate the wave. Chris Reeve didn't print patent numbers on his integral lock. The products stood for themselves.
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Why would they put Ken Onion markings on the 0308? It’s an in-house design, as indicated by their in-house marking...but maybe you didn’t know that. And the Scarab? Tell me, in fact, show me where KAI put to market a Scarab inspired model...I mean, besides the pic everyone likes to say is a copied scarab without any real merit...but again, maybe I can’t see it very well from all the way up here on this moral mountain...might have to get my binoculars.

Last I checked, the Knockout and Bareknuckle are USA made...so chinese lockbars apply to those models how? And of course it isn’t illegal to print the patent number on items that are patented, thats why people and companies do it. And Ernest Emerson did patent the wave and licenses it out to other manufactures that mark their use of it as such. Spyderco, Southern Grind...they’ve used the wave and have marked models with it accordingly..
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In fact, Ernest Emerson has publicly requested people cease from using the term wave for any pocket opening modifications they make.

And I’m not sure how we lost the 0777 in all this? I mean, I got 2 and I know a fair amount of people who have 0777s as well...

And nah, my post yesterday wasn’t an April Fools Day post and neither is this one, but have a good 4/1 anyways.
 
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I’m right here BB, hope you’re staying safe in this crazy COVID-19 world
 
kylemiller kylemiller , i think you might be a little off on that story but hey its yours and you should stick to it!

There was one singular OTF proto made period/ ever. Never sold or marketed.


The natrix is the only chinese made piece you mention with a sub frame lock. The rest were made in Tualitin Oregon.

The 030X series were ken onion, strider and KAI designed pieces. The 0308 is influenced by the 030X series but it is not a 0300 So why should KO be mentioned?

With so many obviously wrong statements there you kinda shot both feet off. Maybe your post is april fools on us?


And as metsfan metsfan just stated emerson does patent the wave
 
JuJu- said:
kylemiller kylemiller , i think you might be a little off on that story but hey its yours and you should stick to it!

There was one singular OTF proto made period/ ever. Never sold or marketed.


The natrix is the only chinese made piece you mention with a sub frame lock. The rest were made in Tualitin Oregon.

The 030X series were ken onion, strider and KAI designed pieces. The 0308 is influenced by the 030X series but it is not a 0300 So why should KO be mentioned?

With so many obviously wrong statements there you kinda shot both feet off. Maybe your post is april fools on us?


And as metsfan metsfan just stated emerson does patent the wave
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People determined a while ago that screws and clips from Chinese Kershaw's and ZT's were coming from the same place. The sunny side folks assumed they were putting USA made metric screws into imported Chinese knife parts on the Kershaw side. Some took the other approach. Now the lockbar on the Bareknuckle's and Knockout's I've sharpened for people have a very obvious shiny black paint. The grade of which I've never seen on a Leek, Blur, Link or any ZT knife (outside of the clips and screws). Is anyone sure what % of parts are USA made? Makes ya wonder.

Regarding the 0308, well, we could split hairs on the differences in the ZT 0301 and compare that to the 0777 vs Matrix. I think we'd end up pretty even. Many we could even try to get Ken and Mick's take on it?
 
kylemiller said:
Regarding the 0308, well, we could split hairs on the differences in the ZT 0301 and compare that to the 0777 vs Matrix. I think we'd end up pretty even. Many we could even try to get Ken and Mick's take on it?
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You want to pull Strider into it on a question of ethics and integrity? :confused:
 
evilgreg said:
They're kind of douche-ey. They released a clone of a ZT knife (the aforementioned 0777) before it came to market, then released piles of versions of it for years. They sued a blogger, I think. I think Tony also sued his son at one point if I remember correctly. Then there's the whole "what kind of moron puts triangle head screws on their knives" thing that requires you to buy expensive tools to work on them.

There are plenty of companies that make nice OTFs, though, so if you want to go elsewhere there are lots of options.
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Don't forget the Mikov clone too. I like my UTX-85 but some of the things I have read are crazy regarding the whole ZT/ Microtech spat.
 
kylemiller said:
Is anyone sure what % of parts are USA made? Makes ya wonder.
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Nope...it doesn’t at all. Cuz wondering about stuff like that is lame. I prefer to think about dope stuff like a slammin NYC slice of pizza from Lennys or DiFaras that I can’t go out an get right now...or maybe if they’re gonna cancel BladeShow this year. You know...important stuff.
 
Kai/ZT definitely has some major douche bags (Thomas Welk for instance) and Kershaw in particular has turned out some real junk the last few years (Natrix), they have gotten it together lately though.

Marfione takes douchery to a level rarely seen outside of Las Vegas...
 
John_0917 said:
Kai/ZT definitely has some major douche bags (Thomas Welk for instance) and Kershaw in particular has turned out some real junk the last few years (Natrix), they have gotten it together lately though.

Marfione takes douchery to a level rarely seen outside of Las Vegas...
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Well I have interacted with T Welk and can say he’s never been anything other than a cool cat when I’ve seen him and spoken to him at BladeShow, and I’m proud to say I consider him and the rest of the KAI USA crew friends. I mean, stepping up to a person face to face and talking to them is way different than just talking about them without having any real reference aside from anecdotal stories.

My Natrix ain’t got no problems, and seeing as how they sell well, calling them junk might be a bit inaccurate...
 
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Well
metsfan said:
Well I have interacted with T Welk and can say he’s never been anything other than a cool cat when I’ve seen him and spoken to him at BladeShow, and I’m proud to say I consider him and the rest of the KAI USA crew friends. I mean, stepping up to a person face to face and talking to them is way different than just talking about them without having any real reference aside from anecdotal stories.

My Natrix ain’t got no problems, and seeing as how they sell well, calling them junk might be a bit inaccurate...
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Welk repeatedly made an ass of himself on here then shut down their forum. Early Natrix models had numerous QC issues including severely off center and even warped/not straight blades (since they stamp them), better now but it was a mess with the first year models.
 
Since being in the whole knife game I've spoken with Thomas Welk a few times and he's been nothing but down to earth and chill with me. Maybe y'all have had different experiences but my Pops taught me to approach people with respect. I've been around here long enough to remember a good number of people jumping on the "let's flame Thomas" train.

As far as the whole sub-framelock thing, well how would any of you feel if you put time and money into something and someone else just rips it off? And the RIL is a non-issue since he chose not to patent it. Like mentioned above, Emerson had the foresight to patent his stuff.

Regarding name calling, well, I've seen Marfione pull some real "douchey" stuff, and I've even heard people say Tim Reeve is a butthole. But what do I know?? I'm just another fanboy. Don't worry metsfan metsfan you're not alone!
 
See it was cool when he gave out knives to peeps grownstar grownstar ...he was an awesome guy then. But you know, when the train don’t stop at the station no more...that’s when stuff goes sideways and people complain how that train sucked. But it’s cool, no worries here. I hope BladeShow is still on so I can go to the KAI booth and shake all their hands, especially Thomas Welk. Ok, maybe not shake their hands...elbow bumps prolly more apropos.

I do miss the KAI subforum, see I was here when it shut down...didn’t read about it after the fact or going by some parroted information...you can check and my posts are there in the closing down thread. As far as the OP’s initial question...I’m 100% sure they could if they wanted to but choose not to. The 0400 Scavenger is an awesome model and if they could produce that back in the day, no reason they couldn’t make a kick ass OTF now. In any case, happy day after April Fools day folks!
 
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