Could Someone Please Identify and Date this Knife for me?

They are all three late model knives. The fist Camillus is a civilian model I think from the 2000s, the KA-BAR is a civilian model newer that the mid 1980s, the last Camillus is a post 1973 knife. Zyyy may have more info, modern knives is not really my area.
 
Gunsil has them right, although the first one (camillus new york usa) could be 1990s as well.

The 4th one is a WW2 vintage Kabar from 1943. It is from one of the earlier batches made by Kabar since it has a round peened tang in the pommel. Probably not one of the first Kabar runs as it is usually ASSUMED that those had red spacers, but it is one made before the first change was implemented (rectangular/square peened tang).
 
The first Camillus has the markings for a knife made between 1989 and 2006. The second Camillus, February 1974 to 1989 when Camillus lost it's Government contract for these knives. During that time they sold knives marked CAMILLUS/U.S.A. both commercially and to Government contract, so it's possible that knife was issued or not.
Ka-Bar reintroduced the U.S.M.C. fighting/utility knife for commercial sales back in 1976. At first the dark finished knives were "parkerized", similarly to most of their WW2 examples. The finish was changed over to the present coating about 1991 or 1992, memory isn't what it used to be.
All four knives have replacement sheaths, with the exception of the first Ka-Bar.
 
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Thank you all so much for your help! I got these from my Dad, and am not really sure what to do with them, but I do like to learn the history. Are Olean and Camillus the towns where they were manufactured?
 
TheParatroopersDaughter said:
Thanks! Will a KA-BAR always be stamped KA-BAR? There are so many that are not marked anything.
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Yes. But over the last century a lot of different names were also used but they are the same company. Olcut, Union Cutlery, Keenwell just to name a few. I am by no means an expert I barely get by lol. But you are in the company of real experts.These Gentlemen here have the largest collections of knives and knowledge in the world :thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
TheParatroopersDaughter said:
Thanks! Will a KA-BAR always be stamped KA-BAR? There are so many that are not marked anything.
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If by "KA-BAR" you mean a knife made by Kabar, then "Yes, it will".

If by "KA-BAR" you mean a 1219C2/USN MK2 Fighting/Utility knife, then "No, It won't".

During WW2, the 1219C2/USN MK2 was made by Kabar (Union Cutlery at the time - Kabar was a brand/trademark at the time), Camillus, PAL and Robeson, and these were stamped with the marks of the respective companies.

Post-WW2, no one made them for the US military until 1961 by Utica for a little while and Camillus until 1982, IIRC, and then by Conetta in 1966 for a short while. Ontario started making them in 1980 and still makes them to this day. And we can't forget the small number made by MSI in the early 1980s.

All of these knives, regardless of manufacturer have been called "Kabars", kind like tissues are called "Kleenex" or copiers are called "xerox machines" even when made by someone else.

Camillus still made the knives for the civilian after the quit making them for the US government until they went bankrupt in 2006/2007.

After WW2, a bunch of MK2s were made using left over parts, copies were made in Mexico (for their military), Japan, and a lot of other companies for civilian sales.

Some people call a wide variety of knives "Kabars" when they are neither Kabar brand knives nor are they even copies of the venerable 1219C2/USN MK2. Kinda like some people call 4", 5", 6" knives "bowie knives".

So a Kabar is a Kabar unless the Kabar is not a Kabar.
 
Am I correct in understanding that the 1219C2/USN MK2 Fighting/Utility knife would be the particular 'style' of knife, which was made by different companies, and 'KA-BAR' is the brand name of one of those companies? Are the other companies' knives as popular/collectible, or just the true KA-BAR's?
The Kleenex analogy was very helpful!
 
TheParatroopersDaughter said:
Am I correct in understanding that the 1219C2/USN MK2 Fighting/Utility knife would be the particular 'style' of knife, which was made by different companies, and 'KA-BAR' is the brand name of one of those companies? Are the other companies' knives as popular/collectible, or just the true KA-BAR's?
The Kleenex analogy was very helpful!
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First, to set the stage, a 1219C2 and a USN MK2 are the same knife. The only difference is the branch of service stamped into it - 1219C2s have USMC on them. USN MK2s have, duh, USN MK2. :D

TECHNICALLY, the post-WW2 versions are the MIL-K-20277? where "?" is the change revision letter and these knives have no service branch designation. I still call them 1219C2s for simplicity sake. "Everybody" knows what knives 1219C2 or USN MK2 refers to. I'd bet not 10 people in the world call the "modern" ones a MIL-K-20277, and all of them are bean counters for the government.

Being simplistic about my answer to your first question is, Yes/No/Kinda/Maybe. The 1219C2/USN MK2 is not a "style" of knife.

The 1219C2/USN MK2 is a knife made to specific requirements for sale to the US government during WW2 for which 5 companies were "approved" to make the knives. (Boker was approved but never got a contract). Union Cutlery was one of the 4 companies awarded contracts to make the knife during WW2. UC decided to stamp their knives "KABAR". They could have stamped them UNION or UNION CUTLERY (or if they wanted to bring back dead brand names such as OLCUT or KEENWELL).

The MIL-K-20277 is a knife made to specific requirements for the US government that is a tweaked version of the 1219C2/USN MK2.

Specific knife popularity among collectors is one of those ephemeral bits of knowledge. Some people only collect KABAR brand 1219C2s/USN MK2s. Some people only collect WW2 versions from any manufacturer. Some folks collect anything remotely resembling the original 1219C2. There might be collectors out there who only want WW2 1219C2s that have red spacers.


Why is it that the entire genre of WW2/VN era/post VN era 1219C2/USN MK2/MIL-K-20277s are called "KABARS" regardless of who made/makes them? Good question. The answer is, in reality, no one knows for sure.

One tale is that Kabar supplied the first batch sent to the Marines at the Marine training depots. (I read somewhere that Camillus' first batch/batches went straight to the Navy.) When the DIs were training the new recruits about their "new fighting/utility knives", the first step was to instruct the boots what the item of the day's training was.

First, imagine a DI standing up in front of a class of newbies holding up a 1219C2. Now, imagine the DIs' spiels went sorta like

"This is the 1219C2 Fighting/Utility knife, made by Kabar. It is 12" long and has a 7" blade, with a stacked leather disk handle. ............"

Marines being Marines, after a few classes, the knife nomenclature would get shortened from "1219C2 Fighting/Utility knife" to a shorter version, "the Kabar" or "my Kabar".

What's a Marine gonna say?

"Where's my 1219C2 Fighting/Utility knife?"
or
"Where's my Kabar?"

When the knives started coming in to the Marines from other companies, were they gonna be picky and ask
"Where's my Camillus?"
or
"Where's my Robeson-Suredge?"
or
(shudder) "Where's my PAL?" ???

Nope. Everything was a Kabar.

And the world is a better place for it.:D
 
zzyzzogeton said:
First, to set the stage, a 1219C2 and a USN MK2 are the same knife. The only difference is the branch of service stamped into it - 1219C2s have USMC on them. USN MK2s have, duh, USN MK2. :D

TECHNICALLY, the post-WW2 versions are the MIL-K-20277? where "?" is the change revision letter and these knives have no service branch designation. I still call them 1219C2s for simplicity sake. "Everybody" knows what knives 1219C2 or USN MK2 refers to. I'd bet not 10 people in the world call the "modern" ones a MIL-K-20277, and all of them are bean counters for the government.

Being simplistic about my answer to your first question is, Yes/No/Kinda/Maybe. The 1219C2/USN MK2 is not a "style" of knife.

The 1219C2/USN MK2 is a knife made to specific requirements for sale to the US government during WW2 for which 5 companies were "approved" to make the knives. (Boker was approved but never got a contract). Union Cutlery was one of the 4 companies awarded contracts to make the knife during WW2. UC decided to stamp their knives "KABAR". They could have stamped them UNION or UNION CUTLERY (or if they wanted to bring back dead brand names such as OLCUT or KEENWELL).

The MIL-K-20277 is a knife made to specific requirements for the US government that is a tweaked version of the 1219C2/USN MK2.

Specific knife popularity among collectors is one of those ephemeral bits of knowledge. Some people only collect KABAR brand 1219C2s/USN MK2s. Some people only collect WW2 versions from any manufacturer. Some folks collect anything remotely resembling the original 1219C2. There might be collectors out there who only want WW2 1219C2s that have red spacers.


Why is it that the entire genre of WW2/VN era/post VN era 1219C2/USN MK2/MIL-K-20277s are called "KABARS" regardless of who made/makes them? Good question. The answer is, in reality, no one knows for sure.

One tale is that Kabar supplied the first batch sent to the Marines at the Marine training depots. (I read somewhere that Camillus' first batch/batches went straight to the Navy.) When the DIs were training the new recruits about their "new fighting/utility knives", the first step was to instruct the boots what the item of the day's training was.

First, imagine a DI standing up in front of a class of newbies holding up a 1219C2. Now, imagine the DIs' spiels went sorta like

"This is the 1219C2 Fighting/Utility knife, made by Kabar. It is 12" long and has a 7" blade, with a stacked leather disk handle. ............"

Marines being Marines, after a few classes, the knife nomenclature would get shortened from "1219C2 Fighting/Utility knife" to a shorter version, "the Kabar" or "my Kabar".

What's a Marine gonna say?

"Where's my 1219C2 Fighting/Utility knife?"
or
"Where's my Kabar?"

When the knives started coming in to the Marines from other companies, were they gonna be picky and ask
"Where's my Camillus?"
or
"Where's my Robeson-Suredge?"
or
(shudder) "Where's my PAL?" ???

Nope. Everything was a Kabar.

And the world is a better place for it.:D
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That was fantastic zzy!!!! Thank you. I would like to see that as a Sticky
 
FYI, Navy-394831, and Marine Corps 1219C2 designations officially change on 2/13/57 to MIL-K-20277. Since 2007 it's no longer MIL-K, but now MIL-DTL-20277/1.
Still a KA-BAR, 1219C2, M2, Fighting/Utility knife, knife combat.
A rose by any other name.

The U.S.M.C. marked Robeson was the one produced in the smallest quantity.
So small that the Government didn't record the contract in it's accounting of WW2 expenditures,a rather large document, because they didn't detail contracts written for amounts below $50,000, (about $700,000 in todays money). Best guess is maybe as many as 10,000 knives, maybe less.
An early knife made with a gun metal blue finish. Overtime these have tended to attract the highest prices of the 1219C2's, but in the last few years the early KA-BARs in great condition have been getting into that price range too.
 
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Wow - this is fascinating stuff! You all might turn me into a knife collector :D Thanks so much for taking the time to explain it all, and in such an interesting and understandable way. I'm still laughing picturing a Marine asking for his PAL!
 
I agree with Zzz a lot of this stuff is passing on information gleaned from others who have made the initial efforts to dig up what they can. I consider myself much more of a librarian than a researcher. Seems like with every question answered there's new questions that come with the answers waiting to be found, (hopefully). Frank Trzaska is certainly one of those who's efforts have changed a lot of stories and speculation to things we can actually hang our hats on. Tom Williams who was the moderator for the Camillus sub-forum here,(Camco), was also Camillus's official company historian, (I don't know of any other knife company who had one). Sadly the world lost Tom sometime ago now. Still Tom dug up things at Camillus that were lost to time at almost all the other knife companies over the years.
 
TheParatroopersDaughter said:
Wow - this is fascinating stuff! You all might turn me into a knife collector :D Thanks so much for taking the time to explain it all, and in such an interesting and understandable way. I'm still laughing picturing a Marine asking for his PAL!
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Whatever you do, don't ask a G.I. or veteran for that matter the definition of a "buddy". It really can't be delivered in a way that would be considered in (good taste).:oops:
 
Actually both KA-BAR and Case have company historians but since both companies have been sold several times they sadly don'y have the huge amount of older company literature to reference from that Tom at Camillus had at his disposal.
 
gunsil said:
Actually both KA-BAR and Case have company historians but since both companies have been sold several times they sadly don'y have the huge amount of older company literature to reference from that Tom at Camillus had at his disposal.
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gunsil couldn't be more right. As the KA-BAR historian it can be frustrating to think about just how much information has been lost over the last 120 years. Another factor is that for a good deal of the company history keeping records just didn't seem that important, particularly in the early years. The manner in which we do business today isn't the same manner that business was done in the early 1900s. What makes Bladeforums such an excellent resource is the knowledge folks have gained over years of collecting and interacting with one another. You won't find that knowledge in too many company archives or books.
 
I would bet they kept extensive records even in the early days, most companies did. Camillus was just in the same location for many years and hung on to a lot of early paper. I know Case had a ton of paper until Parker bought the company and he removed a lot of it. Luckily some of the early Case/Kinfolks records were recovered in TN a couple years ago including most of the paperwork regarding the founding of Kinfolks. The problem with paper records is that when accumulated it takes up a lot of space so when companies move or get sold this stuff often gets thrown out. I have a bunch of sambar stag pieces and Western States knife purse snaps that were recovered from the Olean dump back in the 1960s, I bet there was a lot of paper there too that was not recovered.
 
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