Couldn't do it properly at the time, but can now

E

edacsac

Joined
May 19, 2010
Messages
31
I don't know...

I joined up here in 2010 because I wanted to make knives. I don't know what happened to my posts or if I ever posted here, but after tons of research, it came down to a KMG grinder in the least. I also read a couple of books that were recommended at the time, and ended buying some blades to make handles for. I never really finished anything because I'm always in the realm of hand tools and I could never do what was in my head without real tools. I actually moved into refinishing some old gun stocks because I can do that with hand tools.

Now don't get me too wrong on this. I worked in a machine shop for several years when I was younger, so to me some things aren't worth doing when I know they can be done better with the proper tools.

I've been digging back in again and looking at building a coffee can forge and revisiting some projects I'd like to do, and I'm seeing that forges and other things aside, a grinder is still probably most important. Well, the time has come where I can afford and accommodate a KMG and some other supporting tools to build knives.

But how do I know if I'm still as enthused as I was 5 years ago? Back then, the idea would be to make cool knives and sell them. 5 years of added wisdom says "good luck with that", but the attraction to create is still there. Obviously I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars on equipment to make a couple of knives for me to fondle. It would still be nice to make a knife without spending the money, but the quality will suffer and may very well diminish interest whole thing.

I'm also attracted to the highly embellished and obscure items, as opposed to everyday knives. The multiple wood handles, the inlays with various materials, blade engravings, etc. I would even like to learn to fold my own damascus. Time is also an issue. If I'm going to dig in, I think I need to tools that produce results in an economical time frame, so filing completely by hand is most likely out these days.

I imagine the experienced folks are cringing thinking of a newbie buying a KMG, but I put all of this on a shelf until the investment was reasonable. Now I'm just a little nervous. I suppose if I spent the money, I could get out without too much of a loss. Hopefully that would not be the case, but I need to cover all angles before buying the tools and consumables and accessories.

This isn't really a question. If I do this, I guess I would focus on stock removal and learning to properly harden and temper, and dig into really cool handles, pommels, guards and the pretty stuff. If anyone has any observations on what I am thinking, I'd appreciate it.
 
edacsac said:
I don't know...

I joined up here in 2010 because I wanted to make knives. I don't know what happened to my posts or if I ever posted here, but after tons of research, it came down to a KMG grinder in the least. I also read a couple of books that were recommended at the time, and ended buying some blades to make handles for. I never really finished anything because I'm always in the realm of hand tools and I could never do what was in my head without real tools. I actually moved into refinishing some old gun stocks because I can do that with hand tools.

Now don't get me too wrong on this. I worked in a machine shop for several years when I was younger, so to me some things aren't worth doing when I know they can be done better with the proper tools.

I've been digging back in again and looking at building a coffee can forge and revisiting some projects I'd like to do, and I'm seeing that forges and other things aside, a grinder is still probably most important. Well, the time has come where I can afford and accommodate a KMG and some other supporting tools to build knives.

But how do I know if I'm still as enthused as I was 5 years ago? Back then, the idea would be to make cool knives and sell them. 5 years of added wisdom says "good luck with that", but the attraction to create is still there. Obviously I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars on equipment to make a couple of knives for me to fondle. It would still be nice to make a knife without spending the money, but the quality will suffer and may very well diminish interest whole thing.

I'm also attracted to the highly embellished and obscure items, as opposed to everyday knives. The multiple wood handles, the inlays with various materials, blade engravings, etc. I would even like to learn to fold my own damascus. Time is also an issue. If I'm going to dig in, I think I need to tools that produce results in an economical time frame, so filing completely by hand is most likely out these days.

I imagine the experienced folks are cringing thinking of a newbie buying a KMG, but I put all of this on a shelf until the investment was reasonable. Now I'm just a little nervous. I suppose if I spent the money, I could get out without too much of a loss. Hopefully that would not be the case, but I need to cover all angles before buying the tools and consumables and accessories.

This isn't really a question. If I do this, I guess I would focus on stock removal and learning to properly harden and temper, and dig into really cool handles, pommels, guards and the pretty stuff. If anyone has any observations on what I am thinking, I'd appreciate it.
Click to expand...

There are good quality but much cheaper grinders available. I am still using a Coote grinder I bought 17 years ago for $400 bucks. It may be a little more expensive now, but worth a look. There are also Grinders In a box, you buy and assemble yourself, another low cost option.

If you are not set up for a forge larger than a coffee can grinder, then yes, focus on stock removal. you will need to learn how to properly grind a blade, it is an essential skill. First, just learn how to make a good knife, you can learn how to do the heat treatment or send it out to a heat treating house. After your skills are up there, you can start some of the things you mentioned. You may want to ask a mod to move this to shop talk, where you will get a lot of answers from folks who have been in your shoes:)
 
Thank you David. I would certainly be for something cheaper, but I'd rather have everything I need show up in one box, ready to go. I work a lot of hours and if I'm going to do this, I want to eliminate as many obstacles up front as I can.

When you mention the Coot or similar grinders, they all seem to be missing that nice 8" or 10" contact wheel for hollow grinds. Is that important?
 
edacsac said:
Thank you David. I would certainly be for something cheaper, but I'd rather have everything I need show up in one box, ready to go. I work a lot of hours and if I'm going to do this, I want to eliminate as many obstacles up front as I can.

When you mention the Coot or similar grinders, they all seem to be missing that nice 8" or 10" contact wheel for hollow grinds. Is that important?
Click to expand...

They come with 10" wheels, I think. Mine did anyway, but it's been so long I can't remember it I asked for it as a special order. But to answer your question, when you get it the only other things you will need are belts, and an electric motor. I'd go to their website and look around ask some questions, and so on.
 
Just a quick look at the Coot, I see the wheels, but they don't look usable as contact surfaces. Can it all be adjusted to make that lower wheel usable as a contact?

I'll dig around a bit and maybe send some emails as needed.

Thank you for your replies!
 
I say buy a good grinder, it's so useful

I mean one with a toolbar.

Shop around on the brand and style there are many options now.

You'll wonder how you ever even sharpened a pencil without one.
 
Buy the KMG and don't look back... or an Esteem if you can wait a little bit longer. :)
 
And in the end, considering complete grinders with VFD, the KMG is not that much more expensive than an Esteem or Pheer. If I own a KMG for a year and find it not my thing, I think I could sell it at a very modest loss rather quickly.

I wish I had more tools at my disposal. I don't know how many threads I read today of folks ranting about building a KMG or similar clone for $500-$600. Aside from a hand-drill and an air compressor, this will be my first real tool of my own. I can't see myself drilling and tapping holes with a hand drill for a GIB, and my knowledge of electricity is a big goose egg. It's such a drag to pay such a large penalty for lack of DIY equipment, but maybe it will be worth it to be turn-key.
 
There's really very little you can't accomplish with hand tools... does a surface grinder and a mill make folders easier, without a doubt! But with patience and meticulous attention to detail I believe most operations in knife making can be done with out high tech tooling... that said, I'm getting a 2x72 ad soon as I possibly can! And the best one I can afford!
 
h20oni said:
There's really very little you can't accomplish with hand tools... does a surface grinder and a mill make folders easier, without a doubt! But with patience and meticulous attention to detail I believe most operations in knife making can be done with out high tech tooling... that said, I'm getting a 2x72 ad soon as I possibly can! And the best one I can afford!
Click to expand...

I could put some file jigs together and do a few knives by hand; it's certainly not out of the question.
 
The one thing that is not being here discussed is your learning curve time. I believe if there is persistence then you will learn but how long will that be and what sort of quality will result? As well, market conditions and your following them or not can keep your sales at a minimum. Yes, it sometimes is true that no matter your work is considered by fellow makers to be of a high quality, its styling will not draw in sales. As well as a quality belt grinder and say $500 worth of belts to start, what about a metal cutting and a wood cutting band saw, as well as at least one good band saw, a surface grinder, and perhaps a milling machine to eliminate the need to learn the hand making thing as well as the machine operating thing? I sincerely believe that with all this equipment in front of you and a load of time available to you, it would be a year at least to see anything near the results you are looking for. My remarks may seem very casual but they are not. I also believe that if you start on this personal challenge thinking abut selling and not as one for you personally meaning the knife you complete is one made for you but will perhaps sell, you will not have the drive to begin to succeed. Do you already have some artistic ability or will this also be a necessary area to develop as you go along?
I could write much more as to my attitudes in regard to knife making approaching the field of art work, however I believe this should be sufficient to open the door a bit and give you a vision of what could be ahead.
Frank
 
Thank you Frank; point taken. As soon as high dollar items enter the picture for anything I get into, the thought process shifts a bit from fun to ROI, and ROI is not something I want to deal with at this stage of my interest. I have zero knife making skills, and as much fun it would be to grind knives on a fine grinder, my comment on a file jig is the road I'm going to take right now. I want to grind, but I also want to practice some neat handle work with inlays and such.

When I left this last time, I had a couple of pre-made blades that I as doing spine filework on, and was filing and sanding handles. As it stand now, aside from some Iwasaki files I just received, I really don't have any quality hand tools to speak of, so I haven't really given the manual approach a fair shake.

There was a time I thought I could dig in and make money, but I wasn't in a position to setup a shop. Now that I can comfortably outfit some machinery and tools, I'm not sure where I want to focus. I am ok in the artistic area though, but I can let that flow on the cheap.
 
I truthfully believe your consideration of what I wrote will pay off for you in the end. You may continue, perhaps on a small scale as many do, very involved but not needing to earn a living, so well prepared to go ahead full time or even drop it all without any serious affect on your present life style time wise or the expenditure of considerable funds. I wish you well whatever your participation asks of you.
Frank
 
I vote for you purchasing the KMG and a few belts and give it a try.

I purchased my KMG before making my first knife. I'm quite sure my first knife cost me well over $3000 including the other tools that I purchased too. As mentioned, you will need to allow some time to hone your skills but if you are enjoying yourself and challenging yourself then it is worth it. Don't look at it in pure monetary terms. Eventually, (hopefully) you'll be able to re-coup some of your investment by selling a few knives.

If it doesn't work out and you discover that you don't have the time or determination to continue, you'll be able to sell the KMG without much loss in purchase price.

Good luck,
 
Thanks logem,

I may yet, but right now I'm going to handle up the premade blades I have and get a forge built, and try a couple of things. I want to try casting as well, and all of that will keep me busy. I also just found a roll of stainless steel wire in my garage that is making my head spin with ideas.

Besides all that, I need to rewire my garage before I get a grinder, and if I'm going to rewire, I might as well make an accommodation for a 220 outlet, which adds more choices. And today I was pondering with my job and all, I have close ties to several machine shops that I can get some blanks roughed and rough profiled (as long as I don't go too crazy) for a good price, that will leave only a pleasant amount of hand filing.

I think I can keep myself busy for awhile at a low cost.
 
I'd suggest trying a few kit knives to start with. The blade is pretty much done, gives you practice on doing the handles.

I love my KMG, and recently added variable speed to it. That said, I started with a 2x42 crapman, then a Coot. I still use the Coote, and you can hollow grind with it, just not as easy as some other machines. There are a ton of 2x72 grinders out there, shop around.

The thing is, if you don't have the "want too's" to do it with basic tools you might not stick with it with expensive tools. A belt grinder is nothing more than a high speed file. Take a good look at Wayne Goddard's "50$ knifeshop".
 
Maelstrom78 said:
make that 220 outlet a 50 amp in case you want to add a welder if you don't have one already.
Click to expand...

Thank you, that is a good idea.


Will52100 said:
Take a good look at Wayne Goddard's "50$ knifeshop".
Click to expand...

Got it, read it, still spend too much time looking at pretty tools! I actually bought it in 2010 and have checked it over a few times since then. I don't have a lot of confidence in my makeshift ability with electrical high speed things. I feel better with machinery that is complete out of the box. So, it's either hand tools or go big I guess.
 
No problem, the reason I suggest the 50$ knifeshop book is for ideas and it shows a quality knife can be made without expensive tools. I build some of my tools, and some I just go ahead and buy, depending on my time and the value of making vs. buying, and wether I want to screw with making it.
 
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