Counterbalance ?

D

Dixieblade57

Joined
Jun 20, 2007
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What I am referring too is, for example on a large / long blade such as Bowie knife does you as builders try to build in counter balance by weighting the handle? I remember seeing one on a forum a while back that the builder had placed a hidden counter balance in the handle. The knife had a wooden handle.

I am in the process of designing a Bowie. The total length is about 16" and about 4-5" of that will be the handle. It will be roughly 3/16” thick at the spine. There will be a guard on it and a piece to transition like a bolster into the crown. I am not sure if you would call that part of the actual guard or a bolster in it self, so don’t kick me if my terminology is off there.

I am concerned that without weighting the handle it will be seriously out of balance. I hate a knife that doesn't feel balanced in your hand. Now I realize if I made a full counter balance of the blade, one a knife like I am describing it would be way to heavy. I have thougt about drilling out the antler and maybe leading it part of the way. Them redrill through the lead for the blade. The blade will not have a full through tang because of the crown. On the other hand I am scared the weighting might just make the whole thing to darn heavy!!

I have been thinking what I will do is if I go with a guard that transitions as a bolster to the antler crown handle. I will then mock up and see what it feels like at that point.
Do you think I will have a problem with balance like that?
Has anyone got experience along these lines? I would greatly appreciate comments and ideas you might could throw my way about this subject!
 
As a general rule, I try NEVER to add any weight to a knife. More often than not I will either drill some larger holes in the tang, or in some cases skeletonize the handle (if its a full tang). If your building a hidden tang, my opinion is that if the proper distal tapers are built into a blade, its difficult for it NOT to balance when completed. Just in case your not fully versed on distal tapers...... the thickest portion of the blade would be right in the middle of the ricasso, with the blade tapering is thickness to it's point. From the ricasso the tang tapers both in thickness and height to it's termination.
The exact degree of taper depends on the blade, and is a learned value. In my experience, if these tapers are executed correctly, it works well for blades up to around 15"-16".
Combine this with a blade that is flat ground/convex edged, and it will be surprisingly light and fast, even for a larger bowie.

I think that trying to add weight to a knife to achieve "balance", it like trying to ice skate uphill......frustrating at best.
 
Thank you for that explanation Ed! I will admit I read it about three times before the ole light bulb went on.
Guess that just goes to show you that recent stay in the hopital for a brain bleed, and operation to repair it, didn't kill my brain after all. :D
Didn't speed it up none either though!!!! Duh which way did he go, what were we talking about??????? :eek: :D

"Confucius say better to laugh at self, but not near as much fun as laughing at others"!!!
 
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As a sword maker I must concur with Ed’s advice. One of the most common mistakes new sword guys make is get caught up in the totally erroneous idea that a poorly balanced blade can simply be counterbalanced with a large mass of weight on the other side of the guard, all this does is makes a piece that is too heavy overall and is more difficult to use than one that was off on one end or the other. You see this practice of counterbalancing a tip heavy blade with a cannon ball pommel on modern sword shaped objects but not on the originals. In swords the thing that separates the wannabe’s from the skilled smiths, is the ability to make the bare blade work fine all on its own with just a slight consideration of how the pommel will change that already good feel. This is why trying to take knife design consideration and making them 3 feet long never really works. But if you take it in reverse and apply tapering and balancing methods for swords to large knives it works very well and will have your customers continually commenting on how amazing light a 12” knife feels in their hand when they pick them up from you table. Be it a bowie or a broadsword, make the blade right and the rest will follow, if the blade is off no amount of fudging it in the hilt will change that.
 
Thanks Kevin, I see what you and Ed are talking about. So sometimes it does pay to ask stupid questions, or maybe it was so stupid for someone newer to the game to ask!:thumbup:
 
I'm only chiming in because it sounds like you might possibly be describing the big bowie I use, but any comments I have would be basically just to reinforce what's already been said above by folks more qualified than myself. :) The blade has to be good first and foremost; then maybe we can fine tune things and change the rotational behavior of the piece by pommel weights. So in that vein, I'm wondering if 3/16" thick stock would be enough for the desired effect. If you started out with thicker stock, like 1/4" or more, then you'd have more room to play with the tapers in the blade.

This bowie has a skeletonized tang and weights hidden under the wood at the butt to help it carry more cutting power at the tip.


bowie4xn6.jpg
 
Guys, I can say without hesitation that Ed and Kevin are right on! The first time I traveled to Ed's shop in 04 to study under him really turned the light bulb on for me on the importance of distal tapers. Ed is right, correctly ground and properly done distal tapers remove a large amount of weight and the more you can remove out towards the end the lighter it will feel in the hand. Of course this has to be balanced with the knife's intended use.

Brad
ABS JS
 
I have handled blades by both Cashen and Caffery and I can reinforce what James just said, we just got schooled by some of the best, so I have nothing else to add to the topic. But...

For those of you who have never been to a serious knife show or have never handled the work of a master, you should make an effort to handle one of these folks work. You see the pictures on the tube or in print but you can't understand the difference between a masterful blade and a KSO without actually holding it.

I was handling a Bowie by Caffery and I'm looking at this huge blade in my hand, and looking at the thickness and size of the blade and handle and there was a serious disconnect in my mind between what I saw and what I felt. You can not understand the speed and handling of a well executed blade without holding one. Without getting all mystical and BSing about it "being alive", I have no good way of describing it, you just ought to go to a big show and try it.
 
I picked up a really big Bowie at a knife show (here in Vegas) once and was amazed at the weight, or lack thereof. It was amazingly light. I couldn't feel the weight of the blade way out front. The balance was excellent. But it was big and you could tell it was a substantial knife, but it was deceptively light, so much so that when I picked it up, expecting some serious weight, I almost tossed over my shoulder (I'm only exaggerating a little. I felt like I coulda strained something expecting weight that wasn't there). It was beautiful too as I recall which is why it caught my eye.
 
I'd like to agree with Brad that Ed Caffrey can help the ole light bulb click on. Distal tapers, the way Ed described it, also really helped this newbie with grinding a rough forged blade. It's a good way establish reference points and true up irregularities.

Thanks much guys, Craig
 
I use the inernet like a big encylopedia. When I am unsure of something I look it up. When Ed made the first post about distal taper, my brain say OK I have heard of that but just exactly what is it. So to confirm what I thought it meant, I looked it up,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_geometry

I am sure I can't be the only one still on the learning curve out there, and maybe that defination will help. After looking at it the and rereading Ed's post the light bulb did come on. I appreciate everyone that has chimed in to confirm the idea. This forum has some great people on it, and us newbs :eek: sure do appreciate it! :thumbup: :D
 
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