couple of basic questions about digital cameras

AmadeusM

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First of all, I assume those that cost 60 bucks or less at Wally World produce pictures that are total crap, correct? Now, let's say we have a 4 MPixel camera around 150 bucks using regular, non-rechargable AA batteries.

What's more of a limiting factor as to how many pictures I can take in one outing? The AA battery life or the memory size? Can I tell the camera how much memory to allocate to each shot? And finally, how many shots per session can I reasonably expect in this entry level range?


Thanks.
 
I have given a cousin of mine a a digital camera for less than $100 from the Wall. I believe it was around $70 in fact. It was made by Polaroid, and the pictures were fine. I am no photographer, but for casual point and shoot photos it did well.
 
The very cheap cameras will provide poor results, ok for snapshots maybe.

I would recommend you go for a model by a traditional camera manufacturer or a company noted for the quality of their lenses. Most people dont realise that the most important part of a camera is the quality of the lens. If you go for a Nikon, Canon, Fuji (or a company like Sony who typically use Carl Zeiss lenses) you will get a much better lens than a brand x camera.

IMO its better to sacrifice features and even resolution to get a camera with a better lens. I would be confident of getting better picture quality from a 3MP Canon camera than a 4MP brand X camera due to the better lens quality.

This also goes for the size of the camera. a 4MP 'normal size' camera will give better quality pictures than a similarly priced 4MP ultra super thin camera because there is more space available for the manufacturer to fit more lenses and a bigger aperture in. The only real exception to this rule is for high end cameras (like my Canon S80 :D) where some of the extra money you pay is buying high end lens materials with an extra high refractive index allowing the lens to be smaller and lighter.

To answer your questions the battery life would depend on a number of factors. If you want maximum battery life you should choose a model that has an optical viewfinder and use it when you are taking pictures rather than the LCD screen, this will massively increase your battery life. You should also buy some 2500mAh NiMH rechargable batteries. This should give you quite respectable battery life. If you were to consider something like a Canon A410 the battery life is approx 100 shots with AA Alkaline batteries or 400 shots with NiMH batteries, but it varies depending on if you use flash, the LCD screen, power zoom etc

Regarding your question on memory, on all of the Canon digital cameras I've had you can choose between a number of resolution settings and compression settings to allow you to take lower or higher quality pictures (read as smaller or larger file size) You can usually cycle between a number of reolution settings from 640x480 to the maximum resolution of the camera. Flash memory is so cheap now though that I just buy a large memory card and shoot at maximum all the time. Even on my s80 (8MP) I can fit over 250 shots at maximum resolution on a 1gb SD card. If you buy a large memory card (512mb is good for a 4MP camera) then your batteries will almost always be flat before your memory card is full. Remeber one of the advantages of digital is you can delete the junk shots and free up more space.

http://consumer.usa.canon.com/ir/controller?act=ModelTechSpecsAct&fcategoryid=145&modelid=11930
 
AmadeusM said:
First of all, I assume those that cost 60 bucks or less at Wally World produce pictures that are total crap, correct?
It seems like a good name-brand digital camera, like the Polaroid that Death's Head mentioned, might surprise you with its quality.

However, that said, you aren't going to get many answers about digital cameras at Wal*Mart because the "associates" don't have 'too much' (read that as any...) training in digital cameras, so you're left with reading the information on the packaging. When a 'cheap' digital camera's package says "No focusing needed," as if it's a benefit, it means that the lens has a fixed focus, and that everything from about 4' to infinity will be in-focus. "Cheap" digital cameras also likely will only shoot images of one size, probably 640 x 480. Also, don't expect the flash to have the almost-necessary option of "Red Eye Reduction."

AmadeusM said:
Now, let's say we have a 4 MPixel camera around 150 bucks using regular, non-rechargable AA batteries.
This camera will have far more options than the "typical" 'cheap' Wal*Mart digital camera, and would therefore be more likely to take photos of a quality that you'll be proud of. This digital camera will probably have a zoom lens with auto-focus and maybe Macro capability, "Red Eye Reduction" for the flash, and the option of several different image sizes/resolutions.

AmadeusM said:
What's more of a limiting factor as to how many pictures I can take in one outing? The AA battery life or the memory size?
Well, like so many things in life, "it depends." If you're happy with taking 640 x 480-sized images (I have my digital cameras set-up to take the largest image size that each camera can handle...1280 x 960 and 2560 x 1920) chances are that the AA batteries will die before you fill-up the memory...but, that is also determined by how much memory your digital camera has available. Does your digital camera have a 16/32MB memory card or a 512MB/1GB memory card...? Also, if you're shooting flash pictures versus non-flash photos, your AA batteries will die faster. The thing to do is to carry extra batteries with you.

AmadeusM said:
Can I tell the camera how much memory to allocate to each shot?
The Wal*Mart "special" may not allow you to choose image size/resolution, but, yes, the 4MP (MegaPixel) should allow you to choose image size/resolution for each shot...but, that's a pain to do. I generally take every photo as large as my digital cameras can, unless I'm up against the memory card's limit, and then I'll shrink the image size/resolution to try to take another photo or two, before changing to a fresh, empty memory card.

AmadeusM said:
And finally, how many shots per session can I reasonably expect in this entry level range?
"It depends." My first digital camera, a Sony DSC-S30, a 1.3MP camera, originally came with a 4MB "Memory Stick," and that translated to approximately 9 images at 1280 x 960, and probably 19 images at 640 x 480. The first thing that new digital camera owners purchase is a new memory card of larger capacity...and it might be worthwhile to ask your digital camera salesperson if they might throw-in a larger-sized memory card, to help you to "decide."

The best way to purchase a 4MP digital camera at Wal*Mart would be to see what Wal*Mart has to offer, and then go to Circuit City or CompUSA and have their sales staff teach you all about that specific digital camera, then, return to Wal*Mart and buy it. Sorry if that sounds like a rotten thing to do, but, Wal*Mart doesn't have the sales staff to teach you about your camera, and Circuit City and CompUSA probably over-charge, in order to pay for their sales staff....

There are many digital camera options, and you need to try to learn as many of them as you can, in order to make the best choices, and to try taking the "it depends" out of the equation....

GeoThorn
 
The best way to purchase a camera is to read what photographers have to say and skip Wally-Cheney World Mart and Shorcut Chitty. :grumpy:
steves digicams dot com is the place to begin your study....
Finish with Google's Froogle search feature, or Fleabay.
 
www.dpreview.com will give you very detailed reviews of many of the cameras.It also has basic info on digital cameras....As far as battery life - I have a new Sony H-1 which has a 12x zoom, image stabilizer and large LCD screen. These three things do use lots of power so it depends how much you use them .As far as the memory stick it depends on the resolution .The higher the resolution you pick the fewer pictures you get on the memory.
 
The main thing that makes cheap cameras cheap is the lens. Any camera is only as good as its lens and many of the cheap ones have small plastic lens. Better cameras have larger lenses made from precision ground optical glass. Also consider that the larger the lens, the more light it can gather, generally speaking.

Nearly all digital cameras allow to shoot at various settings for resolution and compression so you can trade off quality for qauntity. If you know your shots are only going to be used for a low resolution application like putting them on Ebay, the 640x480 setting is fine. However, with memory cards being as cheap as they are, I generally carry a high capacity card and shoot everything at the maximum resolution the camera is capable of. This gives me the best quality and allows for larger high quality prints.

You can always reduce a picture in size for use on the web or email using a number of computer photo programs. Software often comes with the camera. But you cannot increase the size of a low resolution picture without considerable quality loss.

Here is an excellent web site that has in-depth hands-on reviews of nearly any digital camera http://www.steves-digicams.com/
 
It will really depend on how much you are willing to spend on a camera. If you are looking at less than $100, your pickings are slim.
 
The most expensive part of a digital camera is the lens. Cheap cameras have molded plastic lenses. Expensive ones have ground glass lenses.

The second most expensive part is the CCD, the image sensor. There ares several ways to fabricate a CCD. Number of pixels is only one measure of a CCD. Cheap digital cameras use cheap CCDs with low resolution, poor sensitivity, and poor color separation. The most expensive digitals use three separate CCDs and a series of mirrors to separate the colors. There is a wide rage of CCD technology available.

The next most expensive part might be the analog circuitry that does the very first processing of the image. This is where insisting on long battery life and standard AA batteries will bite you. Better analog circuitry needs higher voltage and more power.

The A/D converters which digitize the image are the next step in the chain. Cheap cameras have a single, slow, serial A/D. Aside from taking a long time to convert and store an image, this is bad because the CCD can only hold the image data for a short time. The longer it takes to get those data converted, the more those data decay.

So, there are quite a number of reasons to invest in a better camera.
 
Cheap digital cameras are not useless, but they are useless for taking pictures of knives. You need something focusable for that; cheap cameras are all fixed focus.

Alkaline batteries are nearly useless, for emergencies only. You might get 15 pictures out of a set of alkalines if you don't use flash. Fortunately NIMH rechargeables and chargers are very cheap these days.
 
I recently got a Nikon Coolpix. This model has no view finder, just the LCD screen which is fine with me, but it does increase battery usage. Alkalines are good to have in reserve because you can buy huge packs of them for little money for emergencies. As stated above though, rechargables would be one way to go.

With mine, alkalines will get me about 100-ish pics give or take a few depending on how much I use the flash. I then tried a set of the Energizer lithium AAs. I used the flash maybe 20% of the shots and got a total of a bit over 400 shots. So at home with access to a charger, rechargables are good, when away from one, use the lithium batteries.

The nice thing about digitals these days is they are fairly inexpensive (compared to a few years ago). For the most part if you stick to the brand names (Canon, Nikon, Olympus and such) you will probably be ok.
 
Spending $100 on a digital camera guarantees crap. For $250 or so you can get an excellent camera. Why waste your money? Go here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/compare.asp

And specify "< $300" under "Price" and "Yes" under "Manual Focus" and and see what you get.

Also, as Cougar Allen said, alkaline batteries are not suitable for digital photography. If you get AA-battery-powered camera (I've had them, and I love the convenience), get Energizer 2500mAh rechargeables, and you'll be shooting for a long time. They're cheap, too. I bought a set of 4 for $10.

Honestly, I have no idea why you would want to buy lithium and then throw them away when you can have another set of rechargeables (mine last for close to 500 shots) and just charge them when you get home.

On my Canon A610 and 512MB card I can store 200+ photos in highest resolution and quality. I have a problem shooting more than that in one day while outing (or even in two days).

Read the full reviews on http://www.dpreview.com/ - they're long but educational.
 
Gollnick - for the three ccd cameras - I think you confuse video camera and photo camera, AFAIK there is only the Foveon (e.g. in Sigma SD9 and SD10) chip employing exposure for seperate colors but even that is still one chip. Even the most expensive ones like Canon 1D or Nikon D2H etc. use single chip. (Applies for SLR = single lens reflex, compacts don't use mirrors at all (that's why you don't look "through" the lens in compact camera's viewfinder))

Number of pixels is only one measure of a CCD
Size of the sensor is usally more important. The bigger the chip, the lower the noise and higher sensitivity that can be used.

I don't know where did you take your story about A/D converters, but the image is processed by CPU (that's why it is advertised sometimes e.g. "DIGIC II"(Canon) on the box, it advertises better(faster) CPU), slow storing is usually because of low transfer speed to memory.

The longer it takes to get those data converted, the more those data decay.
WHAT? Trust me, transistors and signal amplifiers are the the devices consuming minimum power. They don't slow down image processing.
--------------------------
AmadeusM - if you want longer battery life, use rechargable NiMH batteries (and buy a recharger:)) and take spare set of batteries with you, the Li-Ion battery packs usually don't last so long and are more expensive. Usually optical zoom function of lens consumes most power. Therefore avoid so called ultrazooms (wide range of focal length, e.g. 28mm - 200mm (equivalent to 35mm)) like Olympus C-750 UZ because the lens is heavier. Ultrazoom lenses are poorer quality too.
If I can give you some advice get used camera (if you can not spend much money) of higher level, basicly: want full manual mode in camera.
look for the lowest aperture value of the lens (around 2.8). I think you will be disappointed with very cheap noname digital camera from supermarkets.

Look for e.g. Canon powershot S45, Nikon Coolpix 4300, or just pick yourself a suitable one: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs.asp

Read this too: http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Camera_System/viewfinder_01.htm

Optical viewfinders on compact digital cameras are usually crap.
 
Honestly, I have no idea why you would want to buy lithium and then throw them away when you can have another set of rechargeables (mine last for close to 500 shots) and just charge them when you get home

Well, lithiums are good for plenty of people a lot of the time. I think most of your average people tend to take pics only occasionally like birthdays, vacations and such. A lot of peoples cameras sit in the closet for several weeks or months and they just figure when they grab it, its going to work. Most people dont check battery charge states weekly and keep everything organized and they dont think "uh oh, birthday tomorrow, charge all batteries including the spares". In most of those cases they would most likely be a bit dissatisfied with the results. For plenty of folks, the lithiums can sit there for months and when they grab the camera its gonna work.

For continuous shooting where you might miss something changing batteries, lithiums are also going to get you more shots.
 
sak_collector - I have canon powershot s50, last time I took shots of some architecture, that means quite a use of zoom, I have used a flash only twice (While I was walking around parked Porsche Carrera :)) and only at low output
My Li-Ion battery (charged about three days ago) was able to took only about 90 shots (in JPEG, cca 160MB) :(
This is (imho) mainly because I have it for about 2 years or so, and as Li-Ion battery gets older it loses its capacity.
 
I have a Canon EOS 10D with a Li-ion battery pack. It has been around a few years. It too no longer gives me all that many shots. The biggest card I have for that camera is 256mb and the battery pack wont even last long enough to fill it up.

That being said, I wonder (and I dont know all the ins and outs of the subject) if it is because it is rechargable. The charger takes about 45 minutes to fully charge the battery. I have taken many many many thousands of photos with it and there is no telling how many charge/discharge cycles it has been through. I would assume though that rechargables do have a limit as to how many times they can tolerate the cycle.

For shelf life I am referring to the non-rechargable lithiums...in my opinion those are the best for a camera that sits for long periods and for when you need uninterrupted shots. Still, rechargables are a huge money saver and worth using. There are just situations where each type has its strong points.

BTW, was it your Porsche? :D
 
sak - for Li-Ion specifically it is good to have big number of charging cycles (charging when it is not empty, e.g. charging when battery is at 90% of it's capacity, oppositely it is not good to fully empty the battery as it lowers capacity of the battery)
ad Porsche - NO :(
Do you want to give me some of your spare ones? :D
 
For about $150 you can get something not too good but not too bad, maybe a Kodak C330: 4 MP, simple zoom lens, no manual controls but decent automatic settings, uses 2 AA batteries, macro capability to about 5 inches, uses SD memory cards.

Or maybe you can shop around local shops to see what may be on sale.

Hard to say what is more limiting battery or memory, depends on the camera and how you use it, and also in what type of batteries you use and picture size and quality settings, see following paragraphs for more on this.

You should get a memory card, most cameras don't come with much internal memory, the card will also allow you to transfer pictures to a computer with a card reader so that you don't have to connect the camera to the PC. I get a bit over 350 pictures in a 512 MB card in my 5 MP Kodak DX4530.

You should also get a NiMH battery charger otherwise you'll be spending too much for alkalines, I recommend one with 2500 mAh batteries, avoid any old ones under 2100 mAh, chargers usually come with 4 batteries and a small camera uses 2 so you can carry 2 in the camera and 2 for backup.

Most cameras allow you to change the size in Mega Pixels and maybe the compression quality which will modify the amount of memory needed for each picture, if you are going to print you may want full size, if you are going to email a picture you may want the smaller size. You may of course edit the picture later in a computer and crop, resize or reduce compression quality, the camera may come with software to do some of these, or you can get a freeware program, I use PhotoFiltre.

Luis

Edited for spelling...
 
For regular person use, I have a canon cx6230, and I feel the resolution is great for what I need it for. It's just a snapshot camera for me. If I need to take a real picture, I use film.
 
huugh said:
Gollnick - for the three ccd cameras - I think you confuse video camera and photo camera, AFAIK there is only the Foveon (e.g. in Sigma SD9 and SD10) chip employing exposure for seperate colors but even that is still one chip.

You haven't looked at some of the really high-end professional, studio stuff.


I don't know where did you take your story about A/D converters, but the image is processed by CPU (that's why it is advertised sometimes e.g. "DIGIC II"(Canon) on the box, it advertises better(faster) CPU), slow storing is usually because of low transfer speed to memory.


WHAT? Trust me, transistors and signal amplifiers are the the devices consuming minimum power. They don't slow down image processing.


Let me take you to school.

The image sensor in most digital cameras is one of several forms of a Charge Coupled Device, CCD. It's a little integrated circuit chip not unlike the CPU in your PC. It's fabricated in much the same way.

The transistors on most digital ICs are field-effect transistors, FETs. Without getting overly technical, a FET has two terminals, one called the "source" and the other called the "drain." Electrons enter through the source and exit through the drain, hence the names. Between the source and the drain is a region made out of a material whose conductivity varies with applied electric field, hence the name "field effect" transistor. The easiest way to create an electric field is between the plates of a capacitor. And that's how a FET works. The sensitive region is physically between the plates of a capacitor. Charge can be put into or taken out of that capacitor through a third terminal called the "gate." When the gate is charged, the resulting electric field makes the sensitive region conductive. When the gate is discharged, there is no electric field and so the sensitive region is not conductive. This is a simplification, of course, but it's basically correct and will help us understand how a digital camera takes a picture.

If you were to go to a semiconductor fabrication facility, you'd see one area of the factory where the light is very subdued. This is where the finished IC dies are tested before the wafer is cut apart. Economically, this is a very critical function. The next steps are cutting, bonding, and packaging. These are expensive steps. You don't want to cut, bond, and package bad dies. On the other hand, the steps preceeding this are also very expensive, so you don't want to throw away good dies. This test to determine which dies will be cut out, bonded, and packaged is very important. It's done in the dark for a good reason. Photons of light can actually knock charge off of the gates of FETs causing a good die to appear bad.

It's possible to construct a FET in such a way as to optimize this light-sensitivity. That's how image sensors are made. And this is how a digital camera works: you charge all the gates, expose the die to the image, and then measure the source-to-drain conductivity -- which is a measure of the amount of charge knocked off the gate by photons, i.e. a measure of the brightness of the light in that pixel -- of each transistor. That measurement is made by a sort of Analog-to-Digital converter. For a five megapixel camera, there are classically 15 million transistors to be measured, five million for red, five million for green, and five million for blue. Making that many measurements takes time. But, capacitors, including the gates of FETs, loose their charge naturally over time for several reasons. This sets up the race I referred to.

Cheap digital cameras have one, slow A/D converter. Better cameras have three (or more) fast converters so they can read the pixels faster before that decay process degrades the data. But, three A/Ds consume three tiems as much power and faster ones use more power still.

Cheap digital cameras sometimes try to compensate for this decay in software. They just inflate the levels on the later pixels. But, it's not possible to know the exact rate of decay. It will vary from pixel-to-pixel, with temperature, even over time. Furthermore, one of my favorite laws of physics is: there's no such thing as a free lunch. In this case, when software inflates the levels, it does so at the expense of detail in the picture. That detail can express itself in the perceived sharpness of the image. So, this is yet another reason why cheap digital cameras take fuzzy pictures.

By the way, just as it was possible to design a FET to optimize its light sensitivity, it's also possible to design one to minimize the rate of decay of gate charge. Unfortunately, the two optimizations are mutually exclusive. But, it is possible to design one to retain gate charge for years. This is the basis of the memory cards used in digital cameras.

So, this is why I said that cameras with fewer and slower A/D converters, while cheaper and using less power, take poorer pictures. It gets back to that free lunch.

There is a Chinese proverb that I think defines photography in general. A strict observance of this proverb has helped me improve both my film and my digital photography. The proverb: If pure water flows from upstream, there is no need to filter it downstream. Couple this with the law of free lunches, and you now know all you need to know about digital photography. Start with clean light, keep it clean the whole way, do as little to it as possible, and you will have a good picture. Every time you try and cut a corner, every time you try for a free lunch, it will degrade the quality of your image.
 
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