CPM 3V and similar steels on folders

Eytan (Ethan) K

Eytan (Ethan) K

Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Messages
459
I'd love to get your opinion on the use of steels such as CPM 3V or PD1 on folding knives.
In my opinion, knife lock mechanism and the structure will collapse before the realization of the potential strength of the blade; then why buy those knives? Why not focus on the steels that have high wear resistance ?

Thanks
 
Eytan (Ethan) K said:
I'd love to get your opinion on the use of steels such as CPM 3V or PD1 on folding knives.
In my opinion, knife lock mechanism and the structure will collapse before the realization of the potential strength of the blade; then why buy those knives? Why not focus on the steels that have high wear resistance ?
Click to expand...

This is my guess-
I own knives that have broken tips although that was done by the previous owner, now me. I also read occasionally about someone breaking off a tip. To me a knife with a long thin blade would be more comforting if it had a tough steel that would be less likely to break. Otherwise for a folder I tend to like steels that are more balanced between toughness and edge-holding such as M4.
 
3V is the powdered version of Cruwear
Click to expand...

Nope. CPM Cruwear is the powder form of Cruwear. Spyderco is currently using that. The mule they brought out in Cruwear was the ingot version. Z wear, PD#1 are the same steel from different companies. 3V is different yet but some of it's performance would make it suitable for similar jobs. They all make great knives IMO.

Just because a steel is very tough doesn't mean it's not suitable for folding knives. All steels are compromises and I like the performance Cruwear/PD#1/Z wear etc. gives me. The super high wear steels are fine too and I have some of them but I don't consider one or the other better or worse except for whatever I am needing in the knife I'm using at the time. I'm glad I can have both Cruwear and 10V, or Maxamet or S110V when I want those. I also really like O-1 and W2 as well and still can't, or won't pick just one.
 
I asked a similar question once. The smart folks here reminded me that such a steel would allow the knife maker to use thinner steel. Hence, a superb slicer.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
MAD777 said:
I asked a similar question once. The smart folks here reminded me that such a steel would allow the knife maker to use thinner steel. Hence, a superb slicer.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

This. Thin stock, ground extremely thin behind the edge. For argument's sake, here is a video of a guy whacking the edge of a kitchen knife in Hap40 steel on a cutting board for a while, and then demonstrating that the edge hasn't been damaged or lost very much sharpness, if any:

[youtube]HSdNOaFf_xs[/youtube]


Now think about how CPM3V is tougher than Hap40.
 
Spyderco Tuff is the knife that comes to mind immediately and is one I don't get—titanium framelock (weak mechanism) and 4 mm thick 3V blade with a 3.00" cutting edge. I had the same thoughts on the steel choice.
 
Spyderco Tuff is the knife that comes to mind immediately and is one I don't get—titanium framelock (weak mechanism) and 4 mm thick 3V blade with a 3.00" cutting edge. I had the same thoughts on the steel choice.
Click to expand...

Nothing about the Tuff strikes me as weak including the lock. It's all relative though .Weak compared to what? I'd guess the knife would give somewhere else than the lock under most sorts of test. Anything can be broken though and yes, I've seen Cold Steel videos. I get by with much less strong locks and knives on a daily basis and have never broken a knife or lock in almost 50 years of knife use. In fact I carried non locking knives for a few decades without any problems.

From what I remember that design came about as a request from people on the forums and Sal gave the task of designing it to Ed Schempp. He did a pretty good job of giving the folks what they wanted. Some agreed with you about the use of 3V in a folder, some didn't. I really like 3V personally including in folders. I've often thought if I had to pick only one steel I would get one from this class 3V through Cruwear on up to 4V, maybe CPM M4. Excellent wear resistance and toughness with good edge stability and ease of sharpening. I'm glad I don't have to pick just one though.
 
The Mastiff said:
Nope. CPM Cruwear is the powder form of Cruwear. Spyderco is currently using that. The mule they brought out in Cruwear was the ingot version. Z wear, PD#1 are the same steel from different companies. 3V is different yet but some of it's performance would make it suitable for similar jobs. They all make great knives IMO.

Just because a steel is very tough doesn't mean it's not suitable for folding knives. All steels are compromises and I like the performance Cruwear/PD#1/Z wear etc. gives me. The super high wear steels are fine too and I have some of them but I don't consider one or the other better or worse except for whatever I am needing in the knife I'm using at the time. I'm glad I can have both Cruwear and 10V, or Maxamet or S110V when I want those. I also really like O-1 and W2 as well and still can't, or won't pick just one.
Click to expand...

Spoken like a man who knows what he's talking about and what he likes and why. Respectable.

I only say that because it's pretty rare. It's refreshing.
 
Last edited:
The Mastiff said:
Nothing about the Tuff strikes me as weak including the lock. It's all relative though .Weak compared to what? I'd guess the knife would give somewhere else than the lock under most sorts of test. Anything can be broken though and yes, I've seen Cold Steel videos. I get by with much less strong locks and knives on a daily basis and have never broken a knife or lock in almost 50 years of knife use. In fact I carried non locking knives for a few decades without any problems.

From what I remember that design came about as a request from people on the forums and Sal gave the task of designing it to Ed Schempp. He did a pretty good job of giving the folks what they wanted. Some agreed with you about the use of 3V in a folder, some didn't. I really like 3V personally including in folders. I've often thought if I had to pick only one steel I would get one from this class 3V through Cruwear on up to 4V, maybe CPM M4. Excellent wear resistance and toughness with good edge stability and ease of sharpening. I'm glad I don't have to pick just one though.
Click to expand...

I don't particularly like the tuff design but I'm not a fan of many Schempp designs. Don't know why. They seem completely off balanced.

As far as steels, I'd like to see people concentrate on 4V and M4 like they have 52100 and 3V. I really believe that 4V and M4 would do better than most steels for most people as long as corrosion resistance isn't a big factor. If it is then getting 3V/PD1/Cruwear would be a great foundation and then adjust the heat treatment, hardness, and geometry for the intended use. That's not to say other steels wouldn't be better for some people depending on use.

For whatever it's worth Bluntcut, who has experimented with a good number of steels in a lot of classes, believes that the 4V and M4 class is capable of being taken to the top of the genuine real world high performance class of steels. I completely agree with him. Not with industry standard heat treatment, mind you, but that the chemical composition supports the widest range of uses and can be tweaked and manipulated to do basically whatever you want it to do in any kind of real world environment. Except corrosion resistance. Other than that it can be made to perform at a high level in multiple uses by someone who understands what the blade is supposed to be used for and also adding in a lot of other unforeseen circumstances.
 
Last edited:
3V is suitable for foldeing knives such as Demko's 4Max, AD10, or AD15. If Cold Steel used 3V in folders it would be a big seller.
 
The Mastiff said:
Nothing about the Tuff strikes me as weak including the lock. It's all relative though .Weak compared to what? I'd guess the knife would give somewhere else than the lock under most sorts of test. Anything can be broken though and yes, I've seen Cold Steel videos. I get by with much less strong locks and knives on a daily basis and have never broken a knife or lock in almost 50 years of knife use. In fact I carried non locking knives for a few decades without any problems.

From what I remember that design came about as a request from people on the forums and Sal gave the task of designing it to Ed Schempp. He did a pretty good job of giving the folks what they wanted. Some agreed with you about the use of 3V in a folder, some didn't. I really like 3V personally including in folders. I've often thought if I had to pick only one steel I would get one from this class 3V through Cruwear on up to 4V, maybe CPM M4. Excellent wear resistance and toughness with good edge stability and ease of sharpening. I'm glad I don't have to pick just one though.
Click to expand...

A titanium framelock is weak in general compared to several other well-known types of locks. I remember some people having issues with their Tuff after 'hard use', in one case a failure after some light chopping of small branches. Anyways, my point is that you shouldn't need the toughness of 3V for anything you ought to be doing with a ti framelock with a 3" cutting edge, and that makes 3V an odd choice of steel. Note that the Tuff prototype also at one point had an integral compression lock.

rfatAqe.jpg


"Liner and frame locks are a long leaf spring and they tend to collaspe under pressure. Compression locks and lock backs are much stronger."

-Ed Schempp
 
MAD777 said:
I asked a similar question once. The smart folks here reminded me that such a steel would allow the knife maker to use thinner steel. Hence, a superb slicer.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Sure, but the action with most folding knives is slicing so one can get the same result with S90V or S30V - better wear resistance; 3V is very though, best for long\medium fixed blades.
 
Thinner geometry is more about hardness than toughness. Even though you made a knife of super tough steel but low HRC you will risk of deformation.

Steel like ZDP-189 or Super Blue are popular among kitchen knife because its can go thinner than others steel since it able to go very high HRC without being much brittle.
 
I have quite a few folders with PD1, and some in 3V. They are a favorite of mine. Hold a great edge, tough when you need, and gets back to screaming sharp with very little effort! I used my PD1 folder to break up some ice so the animals to take a quick drink before it froze over again. Didn't have anything else close by and it worked great. My favorite non stainless EDC steel is K390, but I would definitely hesitate doing that with a K390 blade, especially with the ice as thick as it was.

You are right though, for a folder, I would focus on edge holding over toughness. Although, PD1/Cruwear/3V/Z-wear are probably some of the best all around steels. They have very good edge holding, not like K390 or M4, but still very good. I like them all!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top