Cpm-3v

Crimson Prometheus said:
Not to sound arrogant or Ignorant, but how hard can it be to shape some steel.?... I work for a company that will allow me to borrow any tools. I E (Grinder, jigsaw, bandsaw) that I need, and my patience I must say, is very strong.
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LOL

OK the difference in grinding and shaping 3V versus a beginner more forgiving steel like 1084 is MASSIVE. When you use a grinder you are wearing off the surface of a steel designed to be super tough and very wear resistant. You will want to be using a high quality ceramic belt like a Norton Blaze. Depending on your style and method of grinding be prepared to go through a few belts.

Right now I'm profiling out 15 blades of CPM-3V and it's no picnic. That said 3V is AMAZING! I love it. If your looking to get some Aldo is the man to see. I just ordered some more myself.
 
Prometheus,
Again, welcome to Shop Talk, and please fill out your profile.
Making your first knife is a new experience. It will be full of learning. Just having access to the tools will not give you the skills. As in most other art forms, the simpler you make the first project, the more likely the success. For example:
In drawing, the first project is usually a still life like a piece of fruit. While drawing a nude from a life model would be way cooler it is also far more difficult. The first sketch of an apple will probably look far more like and apple that if your first sketch was a nude woman ( which might resemble an apple more than a naked lady:) ).

For this reason and others, we usually recommend making your first knives with files and sandpaper. After your hands/eyes/brain get the process down a few times, progressing to more powerful tools like belt grinders ( a wheel grinder is of no use to knifemakers), and metal cutting bandsaws ( jig saws are not much use either) is easier.

Draw up a sketch of your knife plan, and give the methods you will be making it with. Post a new thread about it and you will get lots of advise from new guys who just completed their first knives, and know the pit-falls, as well as seasoned veterans with thousands of knives worth of experience.

The sticky "How To Instructions For Making a Knife" has a lot of information that will be of great value to a first time knifemaker.

The reason we always ask to fill out your profile is that knowing a bit about you helps with good answers and advise. If you live in Bolivia, it won't help for someone to recommend Harbor Freight tools. If you are a high school student, it may not be in your budget to buy a KMG. If you are a 40 year old machinist, it would be silly to suggest a primitive cutting and shaping method.....etc. Also, knowing where you live ( City,State, Country) will allow a near-by maker to offer you some free materials or a shop visit. Other services ,such as HT and profiling, are regularly offered for free to new makers who have filled out their profiles.

OK, this is starting to get way off the subject of CPM-3V, so it would be best to start a new thread, introduce yourself, and get started on your first knife project.
 
Back on topic... :)
I mentioned earlier that 3V is "just about perfect" and here's why I feel that way:
- It's tough. Really tough. Vanadium, the CPM process and moderate carbon levels all contribute to this. That doesn't limit its use to big honking thick choppers, although it surely works for that. It also means that you can make small-to-medium size knives with it and grind them thin so they cut really well, without sacrificing durability. I wouldn't try to chop down saplings with a filet or hunting knife, but I still like to know I can grind it thin and keen without fear of the edge chipping on bones.
- It's wear-resistant, in the class of other great steels like D2 and CPM-154. I don't really care much for sharpening knives so I'd rather do it as seldom as possible. Diamonds are very helpful here.
- It's more corrosion-resistant than it gets credit for. Certainly more so than other high-toughness steels like O1, 5160 etc.
- It takes a lovely finish. Don't buy the hype that you can't polish 3V! You just need to do it before HT.

Of course there's no such thing as "perfect"; 3V has its downsides like anything else.
- It's on the pricy side, both to purchase and in the amount of abrasives and time you use working with it. I can accept that.
- It requires pro-level HT and cryo to perform to its potential. I employ Peters' HT.
- There is some doubt in my mind about whether it can take a really fine polished edge as well as Elmax or CPM-154 or M4. This bears further study, but honestly I'm not too worried about it; I use it mostly for EDC/working/heavy-duty knives where I prefer a somewhat toothy edge anyway. I'm working on a project with a certified competition cutter, where we will be comparing a couple 3V blades to some made of M4 and possibly others. We'll let you know what we find.

So, 3V isn't the answer for everything, but it's certainly worth looking into, and great for a lot of things. :thumbup: I'd like to thank Phil Wilson and Jerry Hossom (among others) for their pioneering work in using this excellent alloy.
 
This video sold me on the edge retention of 3V.

[video=youtube;xzuDaDlYJpY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzuDaDlYJpY[/video]
 
I just ground out my first few 3V blades and I found that it actually grinds fairly easily with Blaze belts. With that said, it does appear to get hot a lot faster than say 1084 or W2.
WilliamWoods said:
LOL

OK the difference in grinding and shaping 3V versus a beginner more forgiving steel like 1084 is MASSIVE. When you use a grinder you are wearing off the surface of a steel designed to be super tough and very wear resistant. You will want to be using a high quality ceramic belt like a Norton Blaze. Depending on your style and method of grinding be prepared to go through a few belts.

Right now I'm profiling out 15 blades of CPM-3V and it's no picnic. That said 3V is AMAZING! I love it. If your looking to get some Aldo is the man to see. I just ordered some more myself.
Click to expand...
 
3v is certainly taking high wear resistance steel to a whole new level of toughness. I have played around with some and it is really great stuff. It may be the most balanced steel out there these days, even more so than m4 IMO. But, next month I will have my first CPM 10v blade in my hands. Really excited about that one also.
 
TriviaMonster said:
It may be the most balanced steel out there these days, even more so than m4 IMO. But, next month I will have my first CPM 10v blade in my hands. Really excited about that one also.
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I think you're right. In a way, 3v and CPM-M4/10V are almost mirror images of each other. For most applications, I'll take extreme toughness with very good edge-retention (3V), over extreme fine edge retention with very good toughness (M4/10V)... for some app's, the opposite may well be better.

jdm61 said:
I just ground out my first few 3V blades and I found that it actually grinds fairly easily with Blaze belts. With that said, it does appear to get hot a lot faster than say 1084 or W2.
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Reports of it being crazy hard to grind when annealed are a bit exaggerated, but have some truth to them. Spend a couple days grinding 3v, then switch to O1 or 1084 and it will "feel like butter" in comparison. I've noticed the heat thing with every higher-alloyed steel I've tried. As for grinding or sanding 3V at 58-60Rc... forget it. I feel I really need to get it right pre-HT or it's just too time-consuming.
 
james terrio said:
I think you're right. In a way, 3v and CPM-M4/10V are almost mirror images of each other. For most applications, I'll take extreme toughness with very good edge-retention (3V), over extreme fine edge retention with very good toughness (M4/10V)... for some app's, the opposite may well be better.


Reports of it being crazy hard to grind when annealed are a bit exaggerated, but have some truth to them. Spend a couple days grinding 3v, then switch to O1 or 1084 and it will "feel like butter" in comparison. I've noticed the heat thing with every higher-alloyed steel I've tried. As for grinding or sanding 3V at 58-60Rc... forget it. I feel I really need to get it right pre-HT or it's just too time-consuming.
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Your right. I find myself going to higher grit belts before HT just so I don't have to deal with the scratches post HT. 3V is damn near impossible to grind at 61RC, especially the full flat grinds of a 9" long and 2" wide hunter.

On the same note, who has etched 3V with ferric chloride? I'm contemplating it.
 
WilliamWoods said:
Your right. I find myself going to higher grit belts before HT just so I don't have to deal with the scratches post HT. 3V is damn near impossible to grind at 61RC, especially the full flat grinds of a 9" long and 2" wide hunter.

On the same note, who has etched 3V with ferric chloride? I'm contemplating it.
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Yeah I took my blades to full polish before heat treat, I generally don't have warping issues so no need for flat grinding after.
I had trouble etching 3V with my normal mix. I ended up using 1 part distilled vinegar to about 7 parts Ferric. To get it nice and dark before the tumbler. Look at the photo I posted earlier in the thread.
 
JBS TOOLMAKER said:
I had trouble etching 3V with my normal mix. I ended up using 1 part distilled vinegar to about 7 parts Ferric. To get it nice and dark before the tumbler.
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What was your "normal" etchant? Why tumble it after etching?
 
To get the effect in the pic, It's an acid/ tumble finish. I like it.
Normally on A-2 I use an environmentally safe rust removal product( easy on the hands)
100_3980_2.jpg
 
I dip in Ferric solution until it's as dark as I want, spray it down with off brand ammonia windex, clean it and throw in tumbler.
 
JBS TOOLMAKER said:
To get the effect in the pic, It's an acid/ tumble finish. I like it.
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It does look cool! I am not opposed to coolness for the sake of coolness. :) Do you find any difference between your etched/tumbled finish and plain 3V, or etched but not tumbled 3V, in terms of corrosion-resistance?

My only experience with etching hardened 3V involves a 24-hour soak in plain white vinegar, which results in a light grey finish. I like the look but I cannot say with any detail whether or not it truly protects the steel from further corrosion.
 
Man I haven't played with it enough to find out. I sent one to a client on the west coast who will give me some feedback.
His job will require daily use.
 
I understand. Again, I've found that 3V is more corrosion-resistant than most people think, so my questions about your finish are pretty academic.
 
Once we get some CPM 4V out in the marketplace, it will be interesting to compare it to 3V and other steels. Supposedly, it has the same abrasion resistance as CPM S30V and S35VN and still at least 20% more impact resistance than A2 at 60RC. One question that I have about it is how having the extra carbon will effect the grain and carbide size.
 
jdm61 said:
Once we get some CPM 4V out in the marketplace, it will be interesting to compare it to 3V and other steels. Supposedly, it has the same abrasion resistance as CPM S30V and S35VN and still at least 20% more impact resistance than A2 at 60RC.
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I don't find those numbers terribly impressive, honestly.
 
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