CPM S110V steeling

[Alberta Ed]

I'm increasingly impressed with the CPM S110V on my Spyderco Military, and have gotten good results sharpening first with a DMT ultra-coarse and finishing with DMT fine (red), then steeling. That last step with a steel brings the edge up from hair shaving to hair-popping. The steel is actually an oval burnishing rod about 8" long, designed to put a burr on wood scrapers, but at RC 65 or so works great as a steel. An old valve stem also makes an excellent steel.

 

[Blues]

Ed, when you say ultra-coarse, do you mean the Extra Coarse (220 grit) or the Extra-Extra Coarse (120 grit)?

Forgive this Yank for being obtuse. Thanks, my friend.

 

[Alberta Ed]

Ed, when you say ultra-coarse, do you mean the Extra Coarse (220 grit) or the Extra-Extra Coarse (120 grit)?

Forgive this Yank for being obtuse. Thanks, my friend.

It's the Extra Coarse (220 grit). Only takes a few light strokes to create a burr. A bit pricey, but worth it IMHO, particularly for seriously demented knife nerds.

 

[Blues]

It's the Extra Coarse (220 grit). Only takes a few light strokes to create a burr. A bit pricey, but worth it IMHO, particularly for seriously demented knife nerds.

Oh, no worries on that score, Ed. I've got 'em all. Some bigger, some smaller, some DuoSharp, some DuoFold, some DiaSharp. LOL! Yeah, I get it.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Dangerously]

I just reprofiled a Manix S110V on a DMT extra coarse (and boy are my arms tired). Then refined on coarse, and microbevel with EEF. Not bad, but I don’t know how long it will last yet. I have some 1 micron compound on the way to finish instead of the EEF, since that seems to be the overwhelming advice here.

I’ve read people who have tried burnishing as a final step complain that the edge doesn’t last as long as with diamonds. Perhaps the burnishing weakens the edge by pushing it around instead of cleanly shearing off metal. I don’t know. But if you compare how long your edge lasts with both methods, it would be interesting to hear.

 

[wade7575]

From what I have found with S110v no matter what kind of stones you use the edge does not last very long if you polish the edge and do not use diamond stones you can get a fairly sharp edge on S110v but not razor sharp very easily with a polished edge and what sharpness you do get won't last as long with a toothy edge,it has more to do with the grain of S110v and there is something else and I forget that's in it that does not help matters when it comes to S110v and a polished edge.

I have 2 new Venev FEPA 1200 grit stones that are prototypes and they seem to do a really good job of putting a sharp edge that looks slightly polished but isn't really and S110v seems to respond to those stones pretty well and not loosing it's edge fast.

I just reprofiled a Manix S110V on a DMT extra coarse (and boy are my arms tired). Then refined on coarse, and microbevel with EEF. Not bad, but I don’t know how long it will last yet. I have some 1 micron compound on the way to finish instead of the EEF, since that seems to be the overwhelming advice here.

I’ve read people who have tried burnishing as a final step complain that the edge doesn’t last as long as with diamonds. Perhaps the burnishing weakens the edge by pushing it around instead of cleanly shearing off metal. I don’t know. But if you compare how long your edge lasts with both methods, it would be interesting to hear.

 

[Blues]

I just reprofiled a Manix S110V on a DMT extra coarse (and boy are my arms tired). Then refined on coarse, and microbevel with EEF. Not bad, but I don’t know how long it will last yet. I have some 1 micron compound on the way to finish instead of the EEF, since that seems to be the overwhelming advice here.

What did you bring it down to? Do you know what it was before starting in? How long did the process take you?

Thanks.

 

[Dangerously]

What did you bring it down to? Do you know what it was before starting in? How long did the process take you?

Thanks.

It was the Spyderco factory edge to begin with. I don’t have a tool to measure, but it seemed more obtuse than the 15° per side I was wishing for. I’d guess around 20 dps. Reprofiled, the bevels are almost twice as tall as when I started. I should get a pic, even though they’re a bit wavy. I’m still learning. I was hoping for 12 to 15 dps.

I didn’t use a jig, just freehand on an 8” interrupted DMT XC. First cut off the apex, then propped the widest part of the blade on a couple of coins to help judge a consistent angle, and scrubbed back and forth with probably a bit more force than you’re supposed to. Scrub, scrub, scrub until the sharpie is gone and no more light reflects.

I think it took about three hours. Maybe three and a half. The shoulder comes off quick, and gives a false sense of speed. But the last bit — where you’re scrubbing that huge bevel — takes forever. I’ve reprofiled 1095 blades on the finer DMT C stone in 10 minutes. I was expecting the Manix to take longer than that, even using the XC, but wouldn’t have guessed three hours. Refining on the DMT C stone took only a few minutes.

I got a visible burr on some parts of the blade, but managed to avoid it on others. Cut it off with very light high angle strokes on the EEF. Cuts very well on slices. So aggressive!

 

[Blues]

Thanks, Dangerously. Seems you've earned yourself a beer (or two). Good work.

 

[Dangerously]

Thanks, Dangerously. Seems you've earned yourself a beer (or two). Good work.

Trust me, I congratulated myself before it was even done.

Pics are not that great. Any guess at what angle I ended up with?

 

[PeterS84]

Trust me, I congratulated myself before it was even done.

Pics are not that great. Any guess at what angle I ended up with?

Well, I have the same knife sharpened to 15 DPS with an Edge Pro... My bevels are noticeably shorter than that, so I'd hazard a guess and say 10-12 DPS? Idk, just a guess, but that looks fairly steep. Depending on how your edge holds up under your normal use you may consider putting a micro bevel. YMMV as always.

 

[Dangerously]

Well, I have the same knife sharpened to 15 DPS with an Edge Pro... My bevels are noticeably shorter than that, so I'd hazard a guess and say 10-12 DPS? Idk, just a guess, but that looks fairly steep. Depending on how your edge holds up under your normal use you may consider putting a micro bevel. YMMV as always.

I’m absolutely going to microbevel. This is my dedicated cardboard knife; wanted to try as acute as possible, and just continue with more obtuse microbevels if I have any trouble with it.

I’ve read what seem like impossible stories about how well s110v holds up to high wear activities, so I am excited to see how well (or not) this turns out.

 

[Wowbagger]

I’ve read people who have tried burnishing as a final step complain that the edge doesn’t last as long as with diamonds. Perhaps the burnishing weakens the edge by pushing it around instead of cleanly shearing off metal.

Yuuuuup.

 

[tiguy7]

View attachment 932963 I use the sides of a ceramic kitchen knife as a finishing steel to set up the micro edge. I hold the knife with the edge pointing at the ceiling and alternate light strokes especially on a knife that has been recently sharpened.

 

[Wowbagger]

Alberta Ed,
From one hand tool woodworking knife nerd to another . . .
As you for sure know the steel scrapers the burnisher is designed to be used on is in the mid 50s hardness wise.

See the photo of the two huge files. I bought one of them a couple of decades ago and I wanted one for at work. Some where in the interim Nicholson moved their BFF manufacturing to Mexico. I wondered how the quality of the files compared. (are the new ones from Mexico as hard ?)

Then the simplest solution came to mind : try to scratch the Mexico file with the USA made file and visa-versa. Turns out the old USA file was easily able to scratch the new file. Question answered. The new file still seems decent and cuts mild steel so I’m OK with it. Some of my work is on Chrome Molly though and that can take a toll on a less hard file.

Why the heck do I bring all that up ?

I used to think . . . wow . . . ceramic is hard . . . Shapton stones can cut any “metal” . . . right ?

Then after I got some S110V and started sharpening it and cutting with it on very demanding material I found out the Vanadium Carbides are on a whole other planet of “hard”. They were far harder than ceramic and my Shapton Glass stones. Far harder than the 65 of the burnisher.

I could push the matrix around that the carbides were riding in and fool my self into thinking I had “sharpened” the S110V with Shapton Glass stones but the edge durability left much to be desired.

Only the diamond stones could produce seriously long lasting edges in the S110V. I have proved it to my self over and over and over. Even more recently with the “lowly” S30V.

I’m thinking try the S110V edge on the burnisher, even a draw cut rather than a carving cut. Somewhere out of the way so it won’t be a problem. I’m betting the S110V will mark the 65 hardness burnisher.

If it will . . . well . . .

I think a better way to finish the toothy edge is with diamond on a strop and the best way to finish the edge on a smoother edge is with a DMT 8,000 stone (which is what I use). No strops.

Save the burnisher for the squishy ~55 hardness scrapers . . . chances are the S110V will even ruin the polished finish on your burnisher over time.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

A while back, I was fiddling with a Manix2 in S90V and, on a whim, picked up another knife nearby in VG-10 and lightly 'steeled' the S90V blade's edge on the flat-ground sides of the VG-10 blade. The VG-10's fine satin finish was left with ugly scratches all over it. As mentioned above, in the long term, the 'steel' or burnisher would likely be altered (scratched, polished, etc) by the vanadium carbides in high-wear steels, and maybe even chromium carbides, if a lot of them are there.

On high-hardness, high VC blades, I view 'steeling' as something that wouldn't likely be effective in the long run. Short-term, immediately after sharpening on stones, most any kind of steeling can work like basic stropping to break away fragments of burrs or other weakened metal at the edge, which can leave the edge cleaner & sharper at that immediate point. But following that, when I've tried to use a steel for subsequent touchups on high-wear steels, I've seldom seen much help from it after that initial improvement seen immediately after sharpening. Once the post-sharpening weakened fragments come off the apex, there's not much it can do to help, beyond that.

On the other hand, using a Fine/EF/EEF diamond hone in the same featherlight manner as a 'steel', on such blades, brings every bit of the sharpness back, and does it very quickly.

Steeling is at it's very best on relatively low-hardness (mid-high 50s HRC), ductlle blades that can roll easily at the edge, and therefore can be easily and repeatedly realigned by steeling. That ductility is also what makes 'burnishing' work on such knives, allowing the steel near the edge to be moved around and reshaped somewhat. But high-wear blades with lots of carbide content won't usually, if ever, be that ductile or as soft as a run-of-the-mill kitchen knife in simple stainless.

 

[David Martin]

A while back, I was fiddling with a Manix2 in S90V and, on a whim, picked up another knife nearby in VG-10 and lightly 'steeled' the S90V blade's edge on the flat-ground sides of the VG-10 blade. The VG-10's fine satin finish was left with ugly scratches all over it. As mentioned above, in the long term, the 'steel' or burnisher would likely be altered (scratched, polished, etc) by the vanadium carbides in high-wear steels, and maybe even chromium carbides, if a lot of them are there.

On high-hardness, high VC blades, I view 'steeling' as something that wouldn't likely be effective in the long run. Short-term, immediately after sharpening on stones, most any kind of steeling can work like basic stropping to break away fragments of burrs or other weakened metal at the edge, which can leave the edge cleaner & sharper at that immediate point. But following that, when I've tried to use a steel for subsequent touchups on high-wear steels, I've seldom seen much help from it after that initial improvement seen immediately after sharpening. Once the post-sharpening weakened fragments come off the apex, there's not much it can do to help, beyond that.

On the other hand, using a Fine/EF/EEF diamond hone in the same featherlight manner as a 'steel', on such blades, brings every bit of the sharpness back, and does it very quickly.

Steeling is at it's very best on relatively low-hardness (mid-high 50s HRC), ductlle blades that can roll easily at the edge, and therefore can be easily and repeatedly realigned by steeling. That ductility is also what makes 'burnishing' work on such knives, allowing the steel near the edge to be moved around and reshaped somewhat. But high-wear blades with lots of carbide content won't usually, if ever, be that ductile or as soft as a run-of-the-mill kitchen knife in simple stainless.

This is what I've noticed on S90V as well. DM

 

[HeavyHanded]

I've had good luck tinkering around with a smooth steel on D2. The steeling angle has to be very close to the grind angle or it will blow out the carbides. I did not torture test the edge, but it was burr free and responded well in terms of cutting ability.


If the angle is not too far off and pressure is light, I believe steeling will do a good job on most any steel as long as there is some scratch pattern left to be influenced. Higher carbide steels cannot be drawn out from the edge like low RC, low carbide content steel, but it can still be smeared along the edge - as long as there is grind trough left. Whether this will be better than diamond finishing IDK, but by itself it should work well enough.

I have not tried this on any high Vanadium steels but will give it a try soon, as my 10v EDU is beginning to lose a step and will probably be sharpened in a week or two.

 

[Alberta Ed]

Obsessed, I concur with what you're saying. Apparently, light steeling does something to align the microscopic 'teeth', but a light touch-up with ultra-fine diamond is needed after use to restore that edge.

 

[Alberta Ed]

Obsessed, I concur with what you're saying. Apparently, light steeling does something to align the microscopic 'teeth', but a light touch-up with ultra-fine diamond is needed after use to restore that edge.