cpm10v or cpm15v
- Thread starter elim
- Start date
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Right now the available stock for CPM-15V is pretty thick, I have discussed getting a blade made out of it with Phil Wilson and his responce was positive and he will try to get some thinner stock later on this year. Nothing firm on the date, but something to look forward to long term.
I have a blade in CPM-10V from Phil (<a href="http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/utility_hunter_cpm_10V.html">reference page</a>) and it performance is very high regarding low stress cutting (slicing and push cuts). Its edge retention during such is the highest I have seen, it is far above D2 at the same RC (62) for example.
The only real concerns about it are the low corrosion resistance and toughness. Phil has had bars of 10V rust just sitting in the shop. I have not have a problem with it, but do use Marine Tuf-Cloth on a regular basis. Toughness is another story, I don't think I would get a large bowie out of 10V but have not had any problems with chipping on my blade.
Of course this is relative, what I consider an adequate stress level you might not. Some of the things I have done with the 10V and saw no chipping were : sliced strips off of a mild steel bar, cut up old sneakers, and even sliced about 30' of old carpet. The bevel on the 10V blade is about 15 degrees and the edge is .01" thick behind the edge.
The edge had rolled after slicing up the steel bar as I was pressing fairly hard, similar on the carpet I noticed some areas had dented/rolled and were reflecting. I have a D2 blade (62 RC, custom, cryo) and it chipped during the sneaker cutting. I also have a 420V blade from Phil (59 RC) and it chipped during the carpet cutting.
I did manage to chip out the 10V blade, but it was intentional. I was trying to see what the limits were so as to give Phil some data to use in an extrapolation of the behavior of 15 V (and I was curious which is enough anyway). I started off my slicing up desk staples in 1/8" ridged cardboard on a piece of pine but this was doing nothing to the edge. I was however using controlled cuts and smoothly cutting the staples in half. I didn't think this was a realistic stress so I took some more cardboard, put rows of 5 staples in them and basically pulled the blade hard across them with the cardboard not being supported on anything.
This did chip out the edge at the visible level, it also chipped the D2 and 420V blade. I don't think it was the hardness of the staple but rather since they were getting ripped out of the cardboard and not being cut, the edge was being twisted/snapped violently just after impact. If the bevel was thickened I don't think it would be a problem. However I can't think of a situation where I would actually do that in normal use and leave the bevels acute to get the higher cutting performance.
-Cliff
I have a blade in CPM-10V from Phil (<a href="http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/utility_hunter_cpm_10V.html">reference page</a>) and it performance is very high regarding low stress cutting (slicing and push cuts). Its edge retention during such is the highest I have seen, it is far above D2 at the same RC (62) for example.
The only real concerns about it are the low corrosion resistance and toughness. Phil has had bars of 10V rust just sitting in the shop. I have not have a problem with it, but do use Marine Tuf-Cloth on a regular basis. Toughness is another story, I don't think I would get a large bowie out of 10V but have not had any problems with chipping on my blade.
Of course this is relative, what I consider an adequate stress level you might not. Some of the things I have done with the 10V and saw no chipping were : sliced strips off of a mild steel bar, cut up old sneakers, and even sliced about 30' of old carpet. The bevel on the 10V blade is about 15 degrees and the edge is .01" thick behind the edge.
The edge had rolled after slicing up the steel bar as I was pressing fairly hard, similar on the carpet I noticed some areas had dented/rolled and were reflecting. I have a D2 blade (62 RC, custom, cryo) and it chipped during the sneaker cutting. I also have a 420V blade from Phil (59 RC) and it chipped during the carpet cutting.
I did manage to chip out the 10V blade, but it was intentional. I was trying to see what the limits were so as to give Phil some data to use in an extrapolation of the behavior of 15 V (and I was curious which is enough anyway). I started off my slicing up desk staples in 1/8" ridged cardboard on a piece of pine but this was doing nothing to the edge. I was however using controlled cuts and smoothly cutting the staples in half. I didn't think this was a realistic stress so I took some more cardboard, put rows of 5 staples in them and basically pulled the blade hard across them with the cardboard not being supported on anything.
This did chip out the edge at the visible level, it also chipped the D2 and 420V blade. I don't think it was the hardness of the staple but rather since they were getting ripped out of the cardboard and not being cut, the edge was being twisted/snapped violently just after impact. If the bevel was thickened I don't think it would be a problem. However I can't think of a situation where I would actually do that in normal use and leave the bevels acute to get the higher cutting performance.
-Cliff
Cliff i have a bar of 15v coming next week that i am going to make a small folder out of (3 1/4" blade lots of belly, utility blade)i found a shop to split the bar in half to make two 1/4" pieces out of it.maybe when it is done i can send it to you to do some testing.did you cryo treat the 10v?
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Elim :
I would be interested, let me know once it is ready and we can discuss the detail.
Phil Wilson made the blade and yes he included a cryo treat. You might want to discuss the heat treat of the CPM-15V with him.
-Cliff
I would be interested, let me know once it is ready and we can discuss the detail.
Phil Wilson made the blade and yes he included a cryo treat. You might want to discuss the heat treat of the CPM-15V with him.
-Cliff
Bronco the 15v folder did not turn out very well.it is not that Roger did not due a good job in fact to knife's craftmenship is out standing.but the 15v just does not like to take a good edge.maybe we need to play around with the heat treat,i don't know.15v is also very very bad for rusting.i coated it with tuff glide and it still rusted sitting in my truck.I still have a 1 1/2"x12"x1/4" bar stock if anyone wants to try it.i think i will put a stellite blade in the knife.if anyone has a bar of stellite email me
Bronco
Moderator
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2000
- Messages
- 7,553
Hi Elim,
Thanks for the update. I'm sorry to hear that the project didn't turn out as well as you (we
) had hoped. But such is the nature of being a pioneer. I hope you're not too discouraged by this setback. Maybe as you say, it's something as simple as dialing in the heat treat. If you don't mind me asking, who did do the heat treat, and have you discussed your results with them? Thanks for sharing with us.
------------------
Semper Fi
-Bill
Thanks for the update. I'm sorry to hear that the project didn't turn out as well as you (we
------------------
Semper Fi
-Bill
Bronco Roger Dole did the heat treat.We called and ask crucibles guys as well as Paul Bos for any input before we treated the blade.in fact we did two blade at diffrent treats.I think a guy needs to just keep trying diffrent heat treat.or maybe 15v is just not a good blade steel i don't know.Either way Roger said he would rather take an a$$ kicking than grind another blade from 15v
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Elim, what was the end RC? When you say it does not take a good edge, could you clarify exactly what this means? Can you get it to shave but it has no slicing aggression or can you not get it to shave at all? What are you using to sharpen it and have you looked at the edge under magnification to see what is happening to it?
If the blade is rusting, then sharpening it is a significant problem as all the rusted material has to be removed from the edge. This goes past the visible and unless it is done the edge will not align well and breaks apart rapidly when used. I have not had this problem with 10V, but you could be in a much more humid climate.
We discussed this blade in particular awhile ago and you offered to let me have a look at it. I turned it down for a few reasons, mainly as Will York can tell you, it tends to take a while for me to do these kinds of things as I am very easily distracted and I didn't want to tie up a new blade from its owner for an extended period of time.
With the properties that you describe I would be very interested in having a look at it mainly because I intend to get one made and could use the results from you work as something that Phil Wilson can use to work from. Can you get the heat treat details from Roger Dole, temperatures and times. If you are open to this drop me an email.
Will, no update as of yet, I will contact Phil shortly and see how busy he is and if he has the time maybe he can grind up a 15V blade sometime next year.
-Cliff
If the blade is rusting, then sharpening it is a significant problem as all the rusted material has to be removed from the edge. This goes past the visible and unless it is done the edge will not align well and breaks apart rapidly when used. I have not had this problem with 10V, but you could be in a much more humid climate.
We discussed this blade in particular awhile ago and you offered to let me have a look at it. I turned it down for a few reasons, mainly as Will York can tell you, it tends to take a while for me to do these kinds of things as I am very easily distracted and I didn't want to tie up a new blade from its owner for an extended period of time.
With the properties that you describe I would be very interested in having a look at it mainly because I intend to get one made and could use the results from you work as something that Phil Wilson can use to work from. Can you get the heat treat details from Roger Dole, temperatures and times. If you are open to this drop me an email.
Will, no update as of yet, I will contact Phil shortly and see how busy he is and if he has the time maybe he can grind up a 15V blade sometime next year.
-Cliff
Cliff the first blade came out at 61.5RC.I have not tested the second blade yet,which is the blade that is in the knife at this time.I will try to get all the info from Roger. As far as where I live and how humid it is .I live in seattle washington,but the blade has been inside my house or in my truck.I could not get it to shave at all.I use an edge pro with the standard stones.When i talked to you Cliff you said the you have an Silicon carbide stone and that may work.I called Ben from edge pro and asked if i could come down to his shop in oregon.Ben was more than helpful .He spent 2 1/2 hours working on the knife trying every thing you could think of.we used silicon carbide, aluminum oxide, diamond every thing and still could not get the knife to shave.Cliff if you want i will send you the knife.I also have a 1 1/2"x12"x1/4" piece of 15v left.Drop me a email if you want me to send it to you.By the way do you have any stellite?
- Joined
- Dec 14, 1998
- Messages
- 4,870
I like what I hear about the new s125v much better than the 10v.
I have used the 10 v . It makes a nice blade.
I dont care for the edge holding.
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
I have used the 10 v . It makes a nice blade.
I dont care for the edge holding.
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Elim, thanks for the offer, I just sent you an email with the specifics. The performance you describe is very interesting, I am very eager to see how the blade responds. Once I work with it I will discuss the results with Phil Wilson and see what he has to say. The heat treat specifics are critical, if at all possible I would like to know them.
The only thing I can think of besides the rusting issue is that the blade could be too brittle and the edge is breaking apart under pressure. I have seen this happen with some very hard blades, ~64 RC. The only way to sharpen them is to use very fine stones and very light pressure and it takes forever. If you go harder or use coarser stones, you can break apart the steel to such an extent that cracks are created that keep causing further degredation when you move to lighter work.
If this is the case what you will see if the edge being very aggressive at slicing initially because of all the cracks making little serrations, but will not shave and push cuts horribly in general and as well has almost no edge retention as it just breaks apart almost instantly.
-Cliff
The only thing I can think of besides the rusting issue is that the blade could be too brittle and the edge is breaking apart under pressure. I have seen this happen with some very hard blades, ~64 RC. The only way to sharpen them is to use very fine stones and very light pressure and it takes forever. If you go harder or use coarser stones, you can break apart the steel to such an extent that cracks are created that keep causing further degredation when you move to lighter work.
If this is the case what you will see if the edge being very aggressive at slicing initially because of all the cracks making little serrations, but will not shave and push cuts horribly in general and as well has almost no edge retention as it just breaks apart almost instantly.
-Cliff
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
The CPM-15V blades arrived yesterday. One had a decent polish for most of its length but was chipped (sub 1/50 mm) in sections. A little work on a ceramic rod (very worn 800 grit) and it was shaving nicely except in the regions that were chipped. The other blade was chipped for the entire length of its edge. It will need to be reground and then polished in order to see how it will take and hold an edge.
Initial impressions are good based on the first blade, even with a high polish it still had a decent bite. I am hoping this will improve once I rework the edge completely. I should have some idea of how they will take and hold an edge after this weekend.
-Cliff
Initial impressions are good based on the first blade, even with a high polish it still had a decent bite. I am hoping this will improve once I rework the edge completely. I should have some idea of how they will take and hold an edge after this weekend.
-Cliff
I happen to have a knife made of Crucible MPL-1 (3.75%C, 24%Cr, 9%V, etc...)
When sharpening "conventionally" with DMT, all I get is a "microcracked" edge, very aggressive but "not shaving", clearly visible under the microscope (30x, bino).
For a finish, I do "steel" (along the edge) on a Spyderco UF hone. With almost "NO" pressure used. That gives me a shining polished edge that shaves perfectly.
My 2¢
------------------
Ted
[This message has been edited by ZUT&ZUT (edited 02-03-2001).]
[This message has been edited by ZUT&ZUT (edited 02-03-2001).]
When sharpening "conventionally" with DMT, all I get is a "microcracked" edge, very aggressive but "not shaving", clearly visible under the microscope (30x, bino).
For a finish, I do "steel" (along the edge) on a Spyderco UF hone. With almost "NO" pressure used. That gives me a shining polished edge that shaves perfectly.
My 2¢
------------------
Ted
[This message has been edited by ZUT&ZUT (edited 02-03-2001).]
[This message has been edited by ZUT&ZUT (edited 02-03-2001).]
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Ted, was this with the 1200 hone? What is the RC of the blade? How much pressure was used during the honing?
-Cliff
-Cliff
Hi Cliff,
No, I "never" use the DMT-UF. Just the "fine" one. I keep strictly to use (almost) "no" pressure, let the diamonds do their work.
The result is:
the diamonds live "forever" and it seems to be even faster than when using (too) "much" pressure.
The HRc is set to around 60 in order to gain a bit of toughness (still not much, about 15 ftlbs, => lots of C & Cr!). The datasheets say that at this level it has about 65% wear-resistance of solid carbide (WC + 8% Co). It is thought to be stainLESS (in one word).
And yes, it cuts like hell, now.
No destructive tests foreseen, it was kind of expensive.
Angle is set to 35° so I could upkeep on the sharpmaker, if required.
But this time I did it freehand (with magic marker) on the Spyderco UF (black box), fully dry. The very edge, now polished shiny, has a width of maybe .2 mm, just to get rid of the "microbreakouts".
Happy sharpening
------------------
Ted
No, I "never" use the DMT-UF. Just the "fine" one. I keep strictly to use (almost) "no" pressure, let the diamonds do their work.
The result is:
the diamonds live "forever" and it seems to be even faster than when using (too) "much" pressure.
The HRc is set to around 60 in order to gain a bit of toughness (still not much, about 15 ftlbs, => lots of C & Cr!). The datasheets say that at this level it has about 65% wear-resistance of solid carbide (WC + 8% Co). It is thought to be stainLESS (in one word).
And yes, it cuts like hell, now.
No destructive tests foreseen, it was kind of expensive.
Angle is set to 35° so I could upkeep on the sharpmaker, if required.
But this time I did it freehand (with magic marker) on the Spyderco UF (black box), fully dry. The very edge, now polished shiny, has a width of maybe .2 mm, just to get rid of the "microbreakouts".
Happy sharpening
------------------
Ted
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
That is understandable then, then 600 grit DMT hone is fairly coarse by most standards. You want to use at least a 1200 grit waterstone before the edge starts looking polished under (10-40) magnification. And it doesn't really look smooth until you hit 4000 grit. Some ceramics are that smooth, I think Spyderco's are, and some are even better, about the same level as the 8000 grit waterstones.
-Cliff
-Cliff