cpms125v

This may be very true and wise - but so far we are about things do not exist.

Show me test results and then I will be able to see everything myself, but instead we are talking a lot about thing does not exist for us, but only for chosen knife elite or something.
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Vassili, you are beginning to get rude about it. Phil has confirmed that Sal gave him the information that's been quoted.

I have no problem accepting either one at their word. They have more than earned that from all of us. You included.

Joe/raleigh
 
The Mastiff said:
Vassili, you are beginning to get rude about it. Phil has confirmed that Sal gave him the information that's been quoted.

I have no problem accepting either one at their word. They have more than earned that from all of us. You included.

Joe/raleigh
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My point is simple - no test results and description - nothing to talk about. Anybody can say anything without proves - but it will be just a rumor. So far I do not see any test result which proves that CPM S90V better then ZDP-189.

To do testing you need:
1. To be able to sharpen all you knives to same extra sharp level - whittle hair is good criteria.
2. Have solid sharpness testing method.
3. Cut only media you choose to test, not base where it lay down. If you cut butter on ceramic plate - all you knives will be dull very fast, but nor because of butter.

Without this results will be quite random.

I did my tests - all results are available and reproducible. I do not see why other testers can not do same? If there is some non-disclosure agreement signed - that why even start talk about this?

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. Only way to change it so far is for me again to test other CPM S90V I have (Microtech and Spyderco Mule) and they may performs better - who knows? But until then - nobody provides test results and all this is just speculations and rumors.
 
nozh2002 said:
My point is simple - no test results and description - nothing to talk about. Anybody can say anything without proves - but it will be just a rumor.
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I haven't been following the entire discussion/argument, but I like this principle. Why is it that every time someone does a test, everyone is so quick to deny the results and use what we've been "told" as the truth rather than what is seen?

It kind of reminds me of the wife that walks in on her husband sleeping with another woman. He says, "Who are you going to believe, Honey? Me, or your own eyes?"
 
Vasili, I was trying to provide some information on how CATRA tests are done. If you read this you chose to ignore it. The point is that the testing is done on blades that are all exactly alike except for the steel alloy. In your tests they are all different knives, different grinds, and unknown hardness. We have discussed my test methods before. You like yours better-- fine. I do my testing now for my own use. When I see test results that differ a large amount from mine I have to comment. Take for what it is worth, I don't give a damn if you believe it or not. your comments on carbides falling out of the matrix are bogus. Have you done some photo micrographs to prove what you are saying? Have you compared D2 as and example photo micrographs to any of he CPM steels to see what the actual carbide size is? What is the hardness of the CPM S90V blade you tested? and compared against ZDP 189? What is the hardness of any of the other steels you tested. I have said it before and will say it again. You are comparing apples to oranges in your tests. You have some information on how some knives perform against other knives, That is interesting but doesn't compare steel performance. I do my testing for my own use and have posted some information here. Some have found it useful. I can describe my test method -- I have many times- and list the results of my testing-- have also done that--you have still found reason to discount it. I even invited you to my shop to cut some rope and see what I do. No response to that and by the way I now with draw that invitation. In general if you compare blades of the same geometry but with differing alloys and hardness you will find as many others have that thin and hard cuts best and a high volume of V carbides will cut longer than a steel with just chrome carbides for example.Those who have gone to the expense to do CATRA tests like Spyderco have found the same in general. Your information tends to show pretty much the opposite. How can that be? Is everyone else in the world wrong regardless of experience? Have you tested any knives in the field under hunting conditions on real life critters? Have you compared field testing to your rope testing to see if it is consistent? Any how I have jousted with you before to no positive end and I refuse to any longer. This is the end of my discussion here on this subject. Phil
 
First of all, before we even start discussing your method - can we see your test results?

Phil Wilson said:
Vasili, I was trying to provide some information on how CATRA tests are done. If you read this you chose to ignore it. The point is that the testing is done on blades that are all exactly alike except for the steel alloy. In your tests they are all different knives, different grinds, and unknown hardness. We have discussed my test methods before. You like yours better-- fine.
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I know that you are making identical blades. I rather create test which is irrelevant to blade geometry differences - I did explained it many times, but so far never see your reply.

I also mentioned that 3 point - initial sharpness, cutting base and statistics. Never hear reply on this too.

It is not discussion, if your opponent just walk away.

Phil Wilson said:
I do my testing now for my own use. When I see test results that differ a large amount from mine I have to comment. Take for what it is worth, I don't give a damn if you believe it or not.
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Well you just say that ZDP-189 equal to CPM S90V without any details. Again this is not discussion. I provide all numbers and method etc... I do not think this is matter of believe - this is not a religious question.

Phil Wilson said:
your comments on carbides falling out of the matrix are bogus. Have you done some photo micrographs to prove what you are saying?
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Yes it was my point. Talks mean nothing without proves. As you may see I made this bogus statement and warn everybody what I am doing to demonstrate that anyone can came up with some theory. But theories like this means nothing without test results.

So can you provide test results to back up your point that CPM S90V is as good as ZDP-189?

Phil Wilson said:
Have you compared D2 as and example photo micrographs to any of he CPM steels to see what the actual carbide size is? What is the hardness of the CPM S90V blade you tested? and compared against ZDP 189? What is the hardness of any of the other steels you tested.
I have said it before and will say it again. You are comparing apples to oranges in your tests. You have some information on how some knives perform against other knives, That is interesting but doesn't compare steel performance. I do my testing for my own use and have posted some information here. Some have found it useful. I can describe my test method -- I have many times- and list the results of my testing-- have also done that--you have still found reason to discount it. I even invited you to my shop to cut some rope and see what I do. No response to that and by the way I now with draw that invitation. In general if you compare blades of the same geometry but with differing alloys and hardness you will find as many others have that thin and hard cuts best and a high volume of V carbides will cut longer than a steel with just chrome carbides for example.Those who have gone to the expense to do CATRA tests like Spyderco have found the same in general. Your information tends to show pretty much the opposite. How can that be? Is everyone else in the world wrong regardless of experience? Have you tested any knives in the field under hunting conditions on real life critters? Have you compared field testing to your rope testing to see if it is consistent? Any how I have jousted with you before to no positive end and I refuse to any longer. This is the end of my discussion here on this subject. Phil
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Again you just walk away.

Now if everybody else in the world have different data - may I see it? Or I just have to accept you saying that I am wrong and that will be it?

It is not about me being right or wrong, this is about test results which we have and even you mentioned that there are many others - where they are? Can we see them? I happy to be wrong if I see this in test results done by others. But there are no any available!

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Vassili, you are probably the rudest person I have seen around forums. It is sad that you should think so much of yourself. As we say over here, "Get a life!".
I would gladly put you on ignore indefinitely but then again I would miss all the entertainment your posts provide. Zero facts but always a lot to laugh about.
 
Phil Wilson said:
By the way my testing of the knives I make have pretty much followed the information Sal gave me on his experience with CATRA. CPM S90V and ZDP 189 work out close to the same in my rope cutting tests. CPM S90V works best at RC 61, is full of very hard carbides and this tends to offset the high hardness advantage (RC66) of ZDP 189. This is my opinion, some could call it hersay or rumor thats ok with me--- but for what ever it is worth.
.. Phil
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It's all good to me. Thanks for your input. :thumbup:
 
nozh2002 said:
Sure, I guess I just bit uncomfortable that Cutlery Manufacturers (not just Spyderco) hide this information from us and we had to invent something or relay on bits they make leak to us. So picture is always foggy and unclear, that no one can be sure.

Worst part is that in such environment it is only free will of manufacturers like Spyderco make them to to some testing. Many just do not test at all not for quality assurance of production, not for research and development.

In result nobody really now what they have and forced to believe rather then know for sure and this creates certain cults which I know for sure two or three...

This situations seems to be very comfortable for manufacturers and this is just sad.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. I hope that more people will take this in their hand and start testing so this "Dark Ages" of Knife World will be ended sometime in the future.
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Why do you feel that any knife manufacturer owes you this information?
It's not like you are using 100 identical blades per day in an industrial setting.

Why can't you be happy like the rest of us, and only cut what ever piece of twine comes your way in daily life?
Why just last week, I actually cut three zip ties and a faulty radiator hose.
Sometime in the fall, I expect to have to sharpen the blade in question.

The only way is see for you to get out of your quandary, is to buy your own Catra machine.
 
Well I can say that in my sandwich cutting tests, S90V held up extremely well. As good as ZDP-189 but with better stain resistance. That BBQ sauce can play hell with carbon rich steel. :D
 
I am going to say this a nicely as possible, Vassili, because the last time I commented on one of your posts, I got a 'chicklet' for it. So, here it is: Your test results are meaningless because you have not controlled for the most important variables of hardness and geometry. You can cut all the rope or string on the planet, but all you are illustrating is the ability of the one particular knife under test to cut some rope at the current temperature and humidity. What is that? You didn't control for the effects of humidity on organic rope fibers? Tisk, tisk.

Anyone with a modicum of understanding of scientific methodology must dismiss your results and conclusions. Like it or not, Cliff...er...Vassili, C.A.T.R.A. is the only game in town. Now, rather than insult well respected professionals in their trade, wouldn't it be more fun to actually get out and use your knives?
 
A.P.F. said:
Now, rather than insult well respected professionals in their trade, wouldn't it be more fun to actually get out and use your knives?
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I agree with this sentiment. I like looking at Vassili's test results but his rudeness is a little hard to stomach.
 
Leadfoot2 said:
Why do you feel that any knife manufacturer owes you this information?
It's not like you are using 100 identical blades per day in an industrial setting.

Why can't you be happy like the rest of us, and only cut what ever piece of twine comes your way in daily life?
Why just last week, I actually cut three zip ties and a faulty radiator hose.
Sometime in the fall, I expect to have to sharpen the blade in question.

The only way is see for you to get out of your quandary, is to buy your own Catra machine.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I think I am doing pretty well without CATRA machine and have reliable and affordable testing method which proven to be working for several years now and which results I am confident with. This is third attempt. I did similar test sessions twice before over previous years and now it is refined to be pretty reliable (to extent possible for blade testing).

About being happy with what marketing feed us about steel - I do not know if I buying car I do some investigation first, call different seller and negotiate deal - I am not agreeing with whatever car dealer initially offers me.

Result is - good savings, better deal, better terms.

In case of knives - being in this from 2002 I kind of noticed that marketing working hard to make us buy things not to provide full and clear information. I may give you a lot of examples, but not going to open this can of worms.

As well as it is pretty clear that there is no test results or any solid information on steel cutting performance. Only some in Crucble data shits about abrasive resistance and toughness.

This is why I start my testings and found myself right away that some of over hyped super-steel are just junk. While makers who stay in a shadow, focusing on actual craftsmanship not self promotion, do much much better with pretty simple and cheaper and older steels then all modern super-steels. Bob Dozier is not exposed too much here as well as Jody Muller - but they do D2 and 1095 much better that "best of the best" CPM S90V steel as well as others.

So to me - my tests are very useful. I save some money not buying poor performing knives. And when I see high performers - like US made Carpenter CTS-XHP - micromelted 440XH - I try to make it noticed by manufacturers so I will have more superperformers out of this steel produced here in US form real supersteel made in US as well for good price.

Of course to be more confident - I like to see other independent test results and I very excited that this starting to happen to some extent. Some of them are different then mine - and I am perfectly OK with this. But I was most pleased when they confiirms unexpected results I got in my testing.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
A.P.F. said:
you have not controlled for the most important variables of hardness and geometry. You can cut all the rope or string on the planet, but all you are illustrating is the ability of the one particular knife under test to cut some rope at the current temperature and humidity. What is that? You didn't control for the effects of humidity on organic rope fibers? Tisk, tisk.
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Well, you obvioucly did not research what my test is. OK, let me explain that again.

I do control edge angle - sharpen all knives to same angle and to same sharpness - what is most important. Initial sharpness control is most important in edge retention testing.

Length, width, thickness, grind etc of the blade does not affect in any way cutting cotton thread to measure sharpness, but angle only I can imagine. Cotton thread is only fraction of millimeter thick and so length, width, thickness, grind etc does not affect this at all.

Same with rope fiber - they are pretty thin to cut. However one or other knife with thick or thin edge may require different force to cut rope, but I do not measure this number. I let it affect very edge cutting it, it may be hard to me to do cut (and it really is for 200 cuts), but I do not care, and only care how this affect the very edge. Of course this does not depend on gring or length or width - edge thickness may be.

Once I did cut I measure sharpness by cutting cotton thread under same tension 21 times taking median as average..

So whatever affect test results - edge angle I do control. Everything else as you may see does not matter.

Now Hardness - I can not control heat treatment , of course. I just take knife as a sample from manufacturer and test it. And I post test results from different manufacturer. I think this is what is important for me as a consumer. rather then steel performance in ideal case.

Humidity is most important factor - I noticed it right away doing my earliest testing session. So I keep rope in the closet in the closed box and take away only few pieces (I precut it 1' long pieces) when I need to cut. But in the area where I am living there is no too much humidity variation over day in the summer.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Phil
Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate it and respect you.

Everyone, this post is about catra tests. If you have no knowledge to add about catra results please stay out. I appreciate all the testing info but at this point it is getting rude so I ask that if your testing results are not on topic (catra tests) please do not post it here. One again thank you all for the info
 
Phil Wilson said:
I even invited you to my shop to cut some rope and see what I do. No response to that and by the way I now with draw that invitation.
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Can I come cut rope? I think that would be a kick to try. Certainly a switch from opening cardboard boxes, cleaning antelope and skinning wild pigs (my three current test procedures).
 
Let's try it this way.

CATRA tests steel on a fully comparable basis. It does not test knives.

Vasili is testing knives. His method may be identical knife to knife, but they are meaningless if you want to compare steel. He should be saying (as an example) "the S35VN Mule blade outperformed the VG-10 Endura blade." His method does not permit him to say "S35VN outperformed VG-10."

OTOH, knowing how steels compare on a CATRA basis is pretty useless in the real world. It has to be hardened, ground, and otherwise made into a knife. Vasili is giving us insights on which knives have performed well.

But you have to remeber that Vasili's results only apply to uses that closely resemble his testing method. You or I might have different real world uses that give results very different from Vasili's routine.
 
JNewell said:
Let's try it this way.

CATRA tests steel on a fully comparable basis. It does not test knives.

Vasili is testing knives. His method may be identical knife to knife, but they are meaningless if you want to compare steel. He should be saying (as an example) "the S35VN Mule blade outperformed the VG-10 Endura blade." His method does not permit him to say "S35VN outperformed VG-10."

OTOH, knowing how steels compare on a CATRA basis is pretty useless in the real world. It has to be hardened, ground, and otherwise made into a knife. Vasili is giving us insights on which knives have performed well.

But you have to remeber that Vasili's results only apply to uses that closely resemble his testing method. You or I might have different real world uses that give results very different from Vasili's routine.
Click to expand...

I am not sure that CATRA are testing steel. They test blades - like Buck uses CATRA testing to came UP with edge 2000 - if you remember this. Buck used CATRA machine to find better edge angle for 420HC.

So CATRA machine tests not steel but blades/knives as I do as well.

CATRA method or my method can be used to find perfect heat treatment for one or other steel.

As well CATRA or my method can be used to find which manufacturer do better heat treatment to same steel.

As well CATRA and my method can be used to find out better performing knife among given set.

This is just the way to see how edge sharpness evolves under certain load. Manila rope in my case and paper with abrasive dust - in case of CATRA (and it is debatable of course which one is more practical and how it relates to real life uses).

From practical use I guess for consumer it is not too much important how good can be steel in ideal condition, but rather know that yes Endura ZDP-189 is on 3rd place among 40 knives tested and yes Manix-2 is on 2nd place.

May be it is possible to make CPM S90V with 61HRC performs better then ZDP189 under 66HRC (which we do not know because there is no test results to have a look). But Endura with whatever ZDP189 there is outperform Military with whatever CPM S90V is there, and this is more practical and this is what I as a consumers prefer to know.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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