Cripple Creeks and the test of time...

I don't know but it seems like there is some history between Cargill and Levine or something - I also thought the plasma cutter comment seemed to be a non sequitur, since what you use to cut the steel wouldn't seem to have anything to do with how sharp it eventually was after grinding. Maybe it heats the steel to too high of a temperature so you can't temper it or something? One thing I've learned I think is that if there are several people that appear to be pretty seriously knowledgeable that have a high regard of Cargill's knives in terms of quality (not just collectibility) I want to search some out to take a close look. I was also drawn to the fact that since he seemed to make quite a few, the prices are not that bad compared to other custom knives. I always think of quality/price - so if Cripple Creeks aren't as perfect as a $750 Bose in terms of construction, then so be it - they shouldn't be. My main question is whether they're better put together than a production Queen and are comparable to the $250 customs out there now. Compared to the perception I had gathered elsewhere, Levine's statement to me was a pretty blanket condemnation of the overall quality that didn't seem to correlate with what a lot of others thought.

Kimbercomp, thanks a lot for the info. Yours is a little too fancy and pricey for me right now - I've been liking the looks of a banana trapper, which I think I can get at a cheaper price. There's one on ebay now but I can't get the seller to send better pics. The current price is only about $66. For that kind of price I would take a flier at it without needing to handle it, but from what I have learned here (thanks to all that have posted in this thread) I don't think I want to buy a >$100 knife without handling several. Too many variables and too little consensus on what the benchmarks of quality are. I've even read a thread on people being very disappointed in the fit and finish of Queens and Schatts...

Coming from being a little more knowledgeable about watches, there are many variations in taste of course, but the top makers (Jaeger, Zenith, Patek,...) are all pretty much universally regarded as superior quality, and there are no such a thing as variations from piece to piece. I can't seem to find those same benchmark brands in knives (yet). It would literally be unheard of for anyone to complain that their Jaeger's second hand flopped around a little bit. I wonder if this is because to have that standard of quality control, it would put these knives way out of reach of the people that are interested in them? To me, pocket knives are a country person's joy, and in the end, have humble roots, which is one reason I guess I like them.
 
mckgreg said:
Hey Fellas. Bob's website is only a very small fragment of his story and of his knives. There are quite a few folks that were close to him throughout his whole life and knifemaking career. I have been fortunate enough to have been able to sit and talk with them. Sometimes for hours on end. You get a much clearer view of what happened and when it happened once you can obtain that sort of input. Yes, for a while, Cargill used a plasma cutter to blank out his blades rather than to keep on band sawing sheets of steel. So what ! What does that have to do with anything. Cargill is and inventor and tinkerer and tried all kinds of ways to keep up with the demand for his knives and slow down the wear and tear on his body. Eventually, he couldn't. There is no comparison between the custom made knives of today and the ones Cargill made. The recent customs are the best there are, for now. The thing about it is, a lot of the big name custom makers of today learned from Cargill when they were starting out and went on to be some of the great ones of today. The Cripple Creek line of knives are what they are. Very well made pocket knives that are no longer being made. They were made in a small shop in a productive manner. You will find a bum one from time to time but not continuously. Learn the history and the time frames will tell you what the knives can't. By the way, how many of you guys know what a plasma-cutter is?
Greg
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Thanks for that!..

McGreg is a wise man of very few words and all his words are true as any man can see. If I were you dkronholm I would re-read this entire thread paying very close attention to the folks that actually handled and used these fine Bob Cargill Cripple Creek knives. Please also educate yourself on what these knives were. And stop listening to the negative son-of-a-bi#@h's with agenda's.
 
I saw a lot of cripple creeks on this site and they looked neat. My "agenda" was to buy one. I wanted one and went looking for them at knife and gun shows and found 5 over the last two years. Each had a fit/finish or design problem that did not make the knife worth the money to me. That's enough to keep me from buying them on ebay.

I have since read and learned more about the man and the knives and have come to believe that there is a wide variety of knives produced over numerous years. I've been told by many, including a former investor, that cripple creeks are a great high quality knife...just maybe not all the time. But we are all human and that's to be expected. Since cripple creeks are highly collectible these days, to me it is not suprising that in the current market (discounting ebay) the specimens I found were less than the hype.

I certainly believe sunnyd when he says he's seen 40 great ones, but these knives were produced in large numbers so its not suprising that the last 5 I've seen are not worth $350 or more.
 
Hey Brownshoe. Which Cripple Creek knife, that was made in high numbers, did someone want 350 smackers for?
Greg
 
I appreciate all of the inputs here, and I think in the end it told me a real important thing, which is that there are some real strong feeling believers in the Cripple Creeks out there. You guys sure shifted the balance back in the other direction. I know I could get criticized for asking ignorant questions and that I should go decide for myself, but I am pretty much forced to be a collector by internet since I don't get back to the US but a couple of times a year. And, I developed an itch to buy myself a nice knife before then. There might be a Cripple Creek in Holland, but I wouldn't want to have to find it.

You don't see that sort of loyalty on what you could call generally inferior products. In the end I learned exactly what I wanted to thanks to the comments, which is that it is definitely not the consensus that they are an inferior product. Thanks for that.

By the way, McCKreg, I saw you picked up that Banana trapper I was watching on ebay. Actually, one reason I posted this thread originally was that I was debating on whether to join in the auction without ever having seen in person or handling a Cripple Creek! I had started to like the looks and story behind the Cripple Creeks so much that I was tempted. I would surely love to see some good pics on that when you get a chance.
 
sunnyd said:
Thanks for the original post..

But, What,, Really? How did that person respond the same way I did.????????
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Whoops. Someone else answered this, but just so there aren't hurt feelings, what I meant was that BRL made the "I didn't write that" reply to someone who wrote this:

BTW, the article in your book "Levine's Guide To Knives & Their Values" speaks very highly of Cripple Creek knives. (Quote: "A quick check of the handle, shield, and stamping could easily tell you that you have found a pocket-sized treasure.) I'm confused over the difference in the opinion expressed in your book and in your reply above. Thanks.
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I thought that your post #7 mirrored that almost exactly in intent, if not particulars.

Rick
 
P.S. Sunnyd - I've read up as much as I can find on Cargill knives - all the threads here and on BF and on AAPF. And, Bob's website and I even wrote him an email to ask him more about his knives. So, my point is that I think I knew most of the history around him and his knives that I could know without knowing him personally. My interest is in the knives, and I gain from all of these things including this thread the impression that he may be one of the rare pioneer types that always seem to have some kind of irrational detractors that a lot of times are jealous of what they didn't or couldn't do themselves. There is a nice quote that to me always seems to be true (from Einstein): "Great spirits always face violent opposition from mediocre minds."

I will be looking to take a look at his work closely to make my mind up for myself, but I tell you, from reading what he had to say, I would be surprised if he hadn't produced some really historical work. Your own strong feelings are another indication of that.
 
P.S.S. McKgreg, I have to answer your question since you asked. I know what a plasma cutter is. I certainly wouldn't hold it against anyone for using one, but the more I think about it, I wonder about the blade temper.

The question to me would be (in just giving the benefit to why anyone would mention this), how hot does the edge get, and then how much heat transfers into the rest of the blade? If it gets up there in temp., and then is cooled slowly naturally, then it seems to me that this would possibly temper the blade somewhat itself in a poor manner, and then not make possible the real tempering you wanted to do. It could be so bad as to not just ruin the edge of the blade, but the whole blade. But, I think this would actually be a research project in itself to answer, requiring probaby some electron microscopy or something.

I'd love to hear a real bladesmiths opinion on this but in general the more I think about it, you are melting that steel and creating a non-uniform temperature in the blade and probably with no controlled cooling, which could, and I say could, be a nightmare for the blade temper. And the way I understand it, once you do a temper, you can't really undo do it - but I am not real sure about that. If so, it would just be an experiment that didn't work out, and any tinkerer and experimenter can't be held to a standard of perfection. BUT, it would make me want to know when the plasma cutter would have been used and then choose another period - if we found that it in fact would have an effect.
 
You are certainly going about things the right way. Seeking information. That is what draws you into whatever your interest may be. I don't believe in hype or blind loyalty for any reason and I am not attempting to push someone into liking a certain type of knife. I try to lead folks in the right direction to find what info they are looking for but can't really answer all their questions for them. I'm not an expert on these knives. I just enjoy them. Finding hard facts on these knives is difficult and if you have an interest in them you will eventually find a lot of it. There is no book or single source of available organized gathering of information that you can just obtain for a reference. Sort of like looking for Zorro to answer your questions. That creates a lot of opinions but very little hard facts. The fact that only so many were made and that there will be no new releases or copies adds to the collectibility of these knives. Whether one has a boo boo or was built in a certain manner different than the others only adds to what you need to know. What you pay for them is up to you. What you think of them is as well. If you enjoy the chase you'll enjoy the capture. Like anything else, they are what they are. You just need to find out why. It takes time. One last thing about this Plasma Cutter fiasco, Most of Cargill's knife parts were not cut using one. A little homework will let you know which ones were. It doesn't really matter if they were cut from sheets of steel with a band saw, jig saw or a thunderbolt from the Son of Zeus. I have used and sharpened knives from every time period of Cripple Creek ( there are a few ) and have never noticed a problem with their ability to cut or stay sharp. The thing about it is, they were made by a knifemaker. Not a factory, critic or collector. If you could buy these knives for 10 bucks or a 1,000 it still wouldn't change what they are. There is a certain amount of magic to them by being somewhat elusive but you are not going to feel powerful or instantly all knowing by simply holding one. You don't even have to buy one to know them. Just enjoy the hunt.
Greg
 
rbmcmjr said:
.. I thought that your post #7 mirrored that almost exactly in intent, if not particulars.

Rick
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Sorry, but in actual fact you are incorrect. Perhaps reading my original post in this thread would clarify things for you.. But I'll elaborate in the last post I intend to write on the subject regarding your comparisons to me and this other fellow in the interest of saving some time:

In my original post I presented an article in its entirety written by Houston Price about Mr. Cargills' knives. This article was in fact endorsed by and reprinted by Levine as well in his 4th edition.. But my main reason for presenting Mr. Price's article was to show other's here with interest, whether participating in or just reading this thread, that Mr. Price had a firm opinion about the quality of workmanship, materials utilized, functionality, and ultimately the collect-ability of Mr. Cargills' knives. Furthermore, it has been related to me by other folks whom I hold in high regard that early on during Mr. Houston's dealings with Mr. Cargill in a business relationship dating back some 25 or so years, that they also became good friends in the process, at least for a time. A man like Houston Price with his knowledge and expertise is a man I whos opinion I value. Hope this clears things up for you.
 
mckgreg, the last knife I saw was a multiblade slipjoint for one of the knife clubs. I don't know enough about cripple creek to know when it was made.
 
Thanks Brownshoe. Club knives are a necessary part of a Cripple Creek collection but they don't seem to command that high a price.
Greg
 
sunnyd said:
Sorry, but in actual fact you are incorrect. Perhaps reading my original post in this thread would clarify things for you.
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Likewise my last post on this topic. But your implication that I can't read won't go without response.

Taken from your original post in this thread (under the whole page scan):

Time after time Mr. Levine has told me and countless others that this book is the most accurate of all his Knives Values Book series and if you were going to purchase and go by any book then this is the one you should use, thereby endorsing all the context within.
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Other guy's post:

BTW, the article in your book "Levine's Guide To Knives & Their Values" speaks very highly of Cripple Creek knives. (Quote: "A quick check of the handle, shield, and stamping could easily tell you that you have found a pocket-sized treasure.)
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Same gist to the comment: "You (BRL) wrote this, so why are you (is he) saying otherwise now?"

This completes the reading comprehension portion of the discussion. If this had been a real flame war, you would have been directed to W&C. We now return to your regularly scheduled thread.

Rick
 
mckgreg said:
Thanks Brownshoe. Club knives are a necessary part of a Cripple Creek collection but they don't seem to command that high a price.
Greg
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I have always wondered about this and why that is.? It seems that although Bob's club knives have a very limited quantity number and are built with the same materials and process, they fetch far less. The only obvious difference is the the designated blade etch denoting the featured club.. Any additional thoughts?
 
Well, you can't just categorize all club knives as being less desirable. It depends on who is collecting what. Generally, the regular line of Cripple Creek knives are the most desirable. There seems to be fewer of them. The early ones, '81 thru '87 are the ones that usually go for more. Especially the '81's and '82's. Then again, if you need a certain pattern or handle material to complete a part of your collection a club knife isn't going to hurt. It seems to come down to appearance more than anything else. Some of Cargill's earliest pieces were made for Knife Clubs and usually few in number. The only knives that were made in the hundreds were the NKCA knife and the Knife World issues with the exception of the Ambassador Whittler. Some of the best knives in my collection are Club knives( Allegheny, AECA and many others ) and knives made after '87 so there really isn't a rule for me.
I guess if you were to break it down, collecting a whole line of knives, like anything else, would be the goal. The Club knives could be considered as being outside of the Cripple Creek line. Thanks for starting this thread dkronholm.
Greg
 
mckgreg said:
Well, you can't just categorize all club knives as being less desirable. It depends on who is collecting what. Generally, the regular line of Cripple Creek knives are the most desirable. There seems to be fewer of them..

.. I guess if you were to break it down, collecting a whole line of knives, like anything else, would be the goal. The Club knives could be considered as being outside of the Cripple Creek line. Thanks for starting this thread dkronholm.
Greg
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Pretty much in a nutshell. This makes good sense.

Thank You,
Tony
 
I just still am captivated by Cripple Creeks, and like anything, it will be a long time to learn and appreciate the nuances. I really learned a lot on this thread, not just about Cripple Creeks. I appreciate a lot more now how you have to have looked and handled a lot of knives by any maker to really get a feel for them. It's real hard to go on the collective opinions, since I haven't found one maker that everyone agrees on in terms of construction quality.

That 3-legged buffalo wins my vote as the best shield I have ever seen on a pocketknife, in terms of what it represents and the look and uniqueness. That is enough for me to want to handle a lot of Cripple Creeks until I find the one for me. I just have the feeling that there was a lot of feeling that went into those knives....

McKgreg you said something before that was interesting to me and made me want to ask a question : your comment about Bob having inspired or taught a lot of today's custom makers makes me wonder if at the time in the 80's were there that many custom makers as today? If not, then Cripple Creeks could be really interesting from a historical perspective. I have also not heard much talk about any other custom maker of multi-blade slipjoints from that era. I can't think of a single one I have heard of in fact. Is that true? That in 1982 for example if you wanted to buy a hand-made (by a single man) stockman pattern 3-bladed knife how many makers were there to choose from? That in itself would be a pretty interesting thing to me.


Thanks McKgreg for sharing a little of the knowledge... Oh, by the way, did you see in Bernard's forum the discussion on the (excuse me for bringing it up again) plasma cutter? Nobody, including Bernard thought that it would do anything in terms of the steel quality. Bernard thought it was important only because he said it gave a wobbly cut which had to be ground down and so ended up making variation in the final product....

I'm just the messenger here, so don't shoot me. It's just kind of fun learning these details and what various people say - I would not be surprised if we knew the (probably brief) period of the infamous plasma cutter we could find remarkable knives - if it holds what I have learned that you have to take every individual knife in consideration.

And, what about posting that red white and blue (it only looked blue to me in the pic on ebay) banana trapper when you get it? I'm still curious what that knife really looked like, since the one pic on ebay didn't say much to me. I couldn't understand why it was listed red white and blue. I couldn't see any red at all.
 
I have a few of the Red, White and Blue knives. I will see if I can remember which roll they are in and get some photos.
Greg
 
Here we go. You can see the Red and White a little better this way. As far as slip joint makers in the eighties goes, I am sure there were quite a few. That would be a good area to poke around in. The discussion about the "evil plasma blaster cannon from outerspace" in another forum doesn't seem to interest me much but I appreciate you pointing it out dkronolm.
Greg

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Plasma cutting seems to me to be a tempest in a teacup! There was a guy who lived to make knives, trying to save his deteriorating nervous system so he could keep on doing what he loved! I think it enhances the knives. I love Bob's work, all of it, and I hate what happened to him. It's a tragic tale; makes owning a Cargill bittersweet. Think kindly of the guy who gave up his health to put it in your hands, and think of all the heart and soul in those damn knives!!!!
 
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