Crisp plunge lines?

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Apr 17, 2014
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93
Hey guys, I've been attempting to improve my grind lines (not doing so good) and continue to have one major issue. I really like when a grind is nearly 100% flat with a slight rounded plunge near the top. I don't particularly care for 100% flat grinds. Anyway, I can't seem to finish a plunge without "scratching" the small part of the plunge (part of the flat) while I'm progressing through belts. I then go to my granite slab in an attempt to remove the scratches but then I have to go back to the grinder to remove those scratches from the bevel. I am stuck in a loop.... any thoughts? Thank you
 
I suspect red, mainly cause that's what I struggle the most with!
I'm gonna pay attention to this one!
 
Well, if it's the red, my biggest challenge is keeping the shape of that radius the same on the left and right side. Sometimes it'll get scratched or scuffed, and I fix it hand sanding with a hard backer. It's worse with the more flexible belts than the stiffer ones, and cork in particular seems to not cause a problem for me.
 
It's the Red. I am experimenting with an aluminum dowel rod with a piece of paper wrapped as tight as possible
 
the red is my weakest point, i try to get one looking decent and then its even harder to get the other side to look the same :confused: i do not attempt that area until i get to 220 grit. the 220 takes off less metal and i get 4 or 5 passes to shape it. with an 80 or 120 i can screw it all up in one pass across the belt and there is no turning back. i hang a jflex belt about 1/8" off the platen and that helps make a curve. i do not make the final shape with 220, i get it close, and finish the rest of the bevel. then i do the final shape @ 400, because you get more passes than the 220. i found that even if i got them perfect with the 220, i could still screw them up with the 400 so i find it best to leave more metal there until final shaping.
 
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Use a file guide when working the plunge, radius your platen edges as well contact wheels.

I find establishing the bottom of the plunge first and then finalize the plunge by backing into it instead of trying to sweep it in
 
I can get the red very easily without even having to radius my platen. Just simply track the belt to that side about 1/8th or 1/4th inch to that side.
 
I can get the plunge. The problem is the belt will "scratch" the flat sometimes while I am getting it. Is it just a matter of being careful as heck? Is it inevitable to do some hand sanding on the flat to remove light scratches from the plunge grind? Thanks for all of the replies
 
The reason it scratches it is due to as you approach you are coming in to flat, you need to come in more toward the edge and then lay in flat. If laid flat it will not scratch that area
 
I'll try to focus on that more. With thin slicers at almost a full flat grind, that angle is mighty small between the bevel and the flat
 
The reason it scratches it is due to as you approach you are coming in to flat, you need to come in more toward the edge and then lay in flat. If laid flat it will not scratch that area

I'll try to focus on that more. With thin slicers at almost a full flat grind, that angle is mighty small between the bevel and the flat
 
I have a cheap 1x30, so probably not relevant.. but i have that issue if the platen isn't firmly pressing the belt outward. If i don't notice the slight slack, a cheap belt will flop on the flats some.
 
That "red" is the same as the "blue"...just on opposite sides of the slope, and i cannot get them as i want at the grinder, but pretty close with a step by step approach.
1.Grind the flat of the bevel and refine at the disk, leaving the plunge alone in this phase
2.Use a carbide file guide and "walk" into the plunges
3.Use the "Wheeler" block for cutting in the desired final radius by hand, with or without the file guide, depending on the thichness of the blade.

For quicker work i cut the plunges with a chainsaw file against the file guide, leaving a bit more meet than desired (reference for the bottom surface of your teeth marks), and then proceed as above
 
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IMO, a platen radius has nothing to do with the "red" area, or rather, it doesn't help at all. This is a tiny transition area from the beginning of the "bevel" transitioning to the flat above and behind. To me, the important part here, is set up previous to your final pass at the grinder. If you get this right at the grinder, you'll have no probs keeping it hand sanding. This area is insanely difficult to fix with hand work, because you're approaching zero SFPM of abrasive action at you come to a stop in the plunge area. A little wonky wrist action and a hole lot of elbow greese can help, or you can try imitating the perpendicular cutting action of a belt (but usually it's easier to screw this up more), but mostly, the trick is getting it right on the grinder.


For *me*, I like nice square sharp corners on my platen. This does *not* keep you from getting real long swooping plunges if that's what you're going for, contrary to popular belief, since you achieve that simply by the variable resistance, primarily, of your belt hanging off the side of the platen, and as long as you don't lever off the corner of the platen, the cushion of the belt backer, and spanning the rest of the platen, should make the corner cut the same as the face, during a standard pass.

On the other hand, the square corners help you getting into this "red" area with a belt, "walking" your plunges back, for a more acute transition.

My method personally, and I'll admit I like sharper, more defined plunges than are popular currently, but are exceedingly difficult to pull off with the super thin folder blades I typically make, is to make sure and get the entirety of my plunge area "defined" at course grit, with 95% of the vertical grind height in this area, and a sharp bevel to flat transition. I know this sounds like it'll leave hellish course grit scratches (I do this at 80 grit typically, because I like a stiff belt that will cut on the edge, so I can push the plunges on both sides so they're equal, top and bottom, and properly aligned), but if you have a nice well defined, solidly defined plunge "foundation" to work on, you can easily get in this are with an 800 grit belt and clean every little scratch up, leaving a tiny amount of room at the top, you can actually jump from 80 or 120, to a fresh 800 grit Awuko belt (800 grit j-weight), getting comfortably riding on your flats and then "push" the plunges into the corner with a belt that's rolled "just enough", to cut the full inside radius of the plunges. With only your guide hand pushing the plunge into the corner of the platen, with such a fine belt, nothing else on the blade will cut with any significant amount of metal removal, but you can sit there riding the plunge for a minute or two, and get every scratch out of the plunge, leaving behind a perfect radius at the inside, and the top red area.

This technique will allow really fine (3/32-1/8 approx) radiuses in the red area, that look exquisite. I use one new 800 grit belt for this, and after that it's pretty well toast. After you ride the plunge, (and sometimes you need to "cheat" the blade into the corner of the plunge by tipping into the platen corner/plunge just a pinch to really get inside that radius) take a solid drawing pass out of the plunge, then go to the other side.


This is an advanced technique, but I've shown a number of masters this, that still cursed doing plunge refinement, that are using it, and amazed. After this, you go back to the next grit past where you stopped with course belts, and *stay out of the plunges* entirely. Work your way back up to 400 or 800 grit, you'll only need to do a couple passes per side at 220 and 400, just to refine and remove lower grit scratches. This of course is critical to do only with a brand new belt.

If things don't look quite perfect, then you can take another 800 grit belt, and make a couple more full passes per side.


However, the most important thing here, is to not track your 800 grit belt when cleaning up plunges, so far that it can wrap up over the plunge shoulders, which will happen, and will burn them out and look like absolute crap. In my case, it's usually no more than 1/8" over the edge.

This works well with larger knives also, but you'll quickly see how critical getting the plunge area inside radius perfect on each side is. In this case it actually helps me to take a Trizact Gator belt, that I've carefully radiused one edge of the way I like it, and use that to "refine the plunge" with, before jumping to 800, I use the coursest trizact I have, and I flip the belt over, when I switch plunges, as it's impossible to get both sides of the belt corner exactly the same radius. I don't track this belt over the edge, I leave it centered, and only use the edge of the belt to "cut the plunge".

With really thick blades, it's easier to file the plunges or use a 120-220 grit j-flex belt rolled over the edge to do the plunge refinement, and then jump to 800.
 
I assume you experienced guys are talking about heavy backed 220-800 grit belts? Not J weight? I still have platen "chatter" with the lighter weights due to the seam bumping on every rotation. Thanks again for the information.
 
I assume you experienced guys are talking about heavy backed 220-800 grit belts? Not J weight? I still have platen "chatter" with the lighter weights due to the seam bumping on every rotation. Thanks again for the information.

No, Y or J-weight belts are fine.

I honestly think most of what people think are splice chatter are just problems in the low grits showing up in the finer grit passes, or using dull belts. 400 and above, I never use the belts more than once, and honestly, they're only good for a few passes per side on steel. Use one per knife, or two if necessary (although 1, and 2-3 passes per side is all you should need if you set up everything correctly at previous grits), and toss it. It's done. Any more attempt to use it is only going to cause problems. A bit of smearing, or streaking is possible from a splice or worn fine grit belt, but if you have any wobbles or faceting, it's a technique issue, not the belt. Try putting a new belt on, and making one firm pass per side, see if that doesn't fix the problem.

If you're shooting for a perfect "belt" finish, and not doing a hand rubbed satin finish, then you will get some light shadowing (smearing) and inconsistency from the splice, and potentially some wobble at the top of the grind if you don't use enough pressure making these passes, as the belt "cups" over the platen from the tension differential due to the shape of the tracking and drive wheels stretching the center of the belt more than the outside. The easiest way to remedy this in my opinion, is to make a final pass with a new 800 grit Awuka J weight belt, on a "soft" platen. This is a rubber/cork/hard felt lined flat platen (must be very firm, with a tiny amount of give or it'll burn out the tops of your grinds and edge worse), that at low speed, and low pressure, will "smooth" out any inconsistencies that you would otherwise take care of when hand sanding (which you would also do the final strokes of with a backed(rubber, cork, leather, whatever) sanding stick).

This is why so many belt finishes are often done with belts like the scotchbrite or cork belts, which accomplish much the same effect, albeit with a different finish.
 
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