Critique and consequence

Kohai999

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
Messages
12,554
Hello all,

In interaction with some of you, the question of critique comes to bear.

Specifically:

At what point in the "cyberspace" interaction is critique requested?

a) When a picture of a work is posted?
or b) When specifically asked for? (This is directly questioned to this
forum subset)

In addition, how should the critique be worded? Directly, or couched with a certain attention towards possible sensitivities.

As I have looked at it, honestly, I prefer the critiques headed towards my way to be direct, and unadorned.
When I die, and they are speaking of me, with vivid memory, will I have been the victim of benign dishonesty, or will I have encouraged my peers and customers to help me attain the wisdom to create a better product, without reservations?

I am truly curious to hear from knifemakers.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I say tell it like it is, truth to all, but what may look good to one, may look bad to another, everyone has an opinion :)

Don Hanson lll
 
You can be direct and still be sensitive to someone's feelings. It is all in how you present your criticism.

Some will take direct criticism well and others will bristle and some, even though they ask for it, don't really want bad things pointed out. They prefer a slap on the back for what they did well. It is impossible to please everyone when critiquing something that they have put their heart and soul into.

Personally, I will point out both the things I like and don't like about the item I am critiquing. When there is something I will point it out. When there is something isn't wrong, but that I don't like, I will let it be known that it is a personal preference and my opinion only.

There is nothing wrong with giving an honest critique of something. If all a person gets is, "Hey, that's great!", then they will learn much slower than if given good honest feedback.
 
On most forums direct and honest critiques usually receive anything from insults to an outright ban.

If you are looking for the "Truth" open Internet forums are not the best or first place you should look.
 
In my opinion ,you cannot give a proper critique over the internet. Knife pictures are one dimensional. You have to be able to coon finger it to be able to judge the knife on its merits.
 
I have to chime in here too. A picture can "hide" a lot of good (and sometimes not so good) things about a knife.

Some of the best education I have garnered is by sitting back and listening when a maker has asked another maker to critique their work. The comments made and how they are made are very key. Many times what is commented on can not easily be captured in a photograph simply because as Jerry said a knife is a three dimensional creation and it is difficult to capture all of it's aspects in two dimensions.
 
Difficult one this - for me it is difficult to critique via the internet and e-mail for 2 reasons.

Firstly - As already pointed out , it is difficult to really appreciate all aspects , good, and bad , from a photograph.

Secondly - The dynamics of communication: One study suggests that an individual will interpret interpersonal communication using 3 dynamics, with the % giving the relative importance:

Verbilisation/Words used - 7%
Tone of speech - 35%
Non Verbal (body language) - 58%

Based on this study, when we communicate via the internet on email and forums, we must rely on only words, which as we all know can so often be mis-interpretted when you can't see someones eyes, their smile, how they sit, or how gently they speak.

This is especially a problem in relation to an artistic and subjective arena such as custom knives.

So I take the approach of using this arena to compliment and praise an individuals efforts and willingness to hang it out there, and will generally only comment when I see something I like - I want to see as many variations, ideas, and individual approaches as possible. I do like to speak my mind and be direct but only when I can speak conventionally, and not in a public arena.

However, I would say that I do fully understand your view and respect our opinions regarding the need for constructive criticism for personal development in any field, but I suspect that the best arena for this is at the shows and the many events that organisations like the ABS hold (how I wish I could get over to the States more often!).

Internet solution? - Well nots fall into a pit of benign political correctness, but a couple of suggestions may be to either take the specific criticisms off line with a pm or email to the individual (they could add a line to invite this) - or particular groups of collectors could set up their own discussion groups via email, sharing personal experiences views etc.

Stephen
 
As said previously, about all you can judge with a photo is how the knife looks to YOU, from a one dimensional viewpoint. I personally use what the individual requesting the critique asks to base my answer. If someone asks "Would you look at my knives?" I tend to be general and kind. On the other hand, should the person say "Would you Critique my knives?" I will give a hard, honest evaluation. Especially if they are asking in relationship to testing for their JS or MS rating.
 
While it is true that you can't come close to being able to fully check out a knife from photographs, you can still form an opinion based on what it is that you do get to see. Photographs are how most of get to see the knives that get us interested in the certain makers. I don't get to many shows so have based most of my purchasing decisions on photos of knives sent to me by makers and those that I have seen in books, magazines and on the internet. Though I would like handling knives to be big part of my purchasing decision, many times pictures and the reputation of the maker are all you have to go on.

One thing is for sure though, getting photos from as many angles as possible sure helps in being able to critique a knife.

Now to the subject of wheter one should offer criticism based only on being able to see photographs of a knife, my view is, if you see something that you don't like it doesn't hurt to mention it. This should be accompanied by a mention that it is just your personal opinion/preference. If you see something that is an obvious problem/fault then you should point it out. Even on the internet, I feel that this can be done in a constructive way that should not hurt the feeling of the one being critiqued. If they can't take criticism given in a constructive manner then they should not post photos of their knives.

It is true though that I have seen flame wars started because a knife from a popular maker was honestly critiqued and the maker and his supporters didn't care for the opinion offered. I think that is why quite a few people are reluctant to offer honest criticism; they don't want to get a strip torn off them for nothing more than having an opinion.
 
fisk said:
....coon finger it.....
Click to expand...

Off topic (sorry) but, me bein' a wordsmith an' all, this jumped right out at me! ;)

I have an idea what it means, but I'd like to hear the translation.

(Great phrase - I'm stealing it! :D )
 
I am not a knifemaker, but I also have an opinion. Steven (Kohai99) and I talked over the phone about this. I suggested he bring the topic up to the members for discussion. I supported this question and dialog.

Point 1: Since we ARE talking about the internet specifically and all we have are two-dimensional images to look at, yes, it's limiting. But.... I find we can scope out the major design infuences regarding shape and material selection quite easily. To say that one can't make an 'honest' opinion from an image is much too simplistic.

True, good workmanship NEVER comes over quite as cleanly in an image. Even my best ones can't capture 'clean' like holding (coon-fingering ;)) it in your hands. It does get close. Yup, the inverse is also true with photos. So there is invariably more than meets the eye.

Point 2: Keith summed it up better than I could with his sensibilities about tactfulness and personal opinion. Critique of style is subjective. Very much so. Keeping it personal, and going out of your way to offer kindly remarks, even if disparaging, would HAVE to be the order of the day. As Stephen F. so aptly pointed out, the tone and body language deficit can start a flame war in a heartbeat. :grumpy:

Point 3: Unless the original poster specifically asks for a critique, it's probably going to be, at worst--insulting, and at best--in poor taste, to offer comments unflattering. It's just the way it is.

Point 4: How do we raise our bar? How can we help others to achieve something that we think would be a benefit to their work? Tough one. Without anything better, I think the private emails would have to do.

Hmmmm.... Unless there was a specific 'forum' designed just for this purpose. Let's call it the 'Raising the Bar' forum.

I subscribe to a photography forum and there is just such a forum for professional and amateur photographers to offer their work for constructive criticism. It just happens to be very well managed and well-worded in the responses, and this is why it works so well. I believe we are at this level of stature in our field.

I would be naive to think that everyone who looks at my images likes them all the time. Some may really *dislike* my style. But they have the wherewithall to not openly comment. Maybe, I, too, could do better with critiques well-worded. Couldn't we all?

Good questions and responses. I think this deserves looking into further. The 'net is here for good.

Coop
 
Cockroach...to coon finger....Holding it in your hand, turning it over and over and around so that you can see and feel it.

When I posted my opinion it is just that, my opinion. I cannot critique someones work by picture. If someone asked for a critique from me, then brought the knife to be submitted for judging in the JS and MS program of the ABS then failed it, then I failed that person. I can only critique the knife in person.

Speaking as the person that over sees the MS judging, also in my own opinion, I have seen knives pictured that looked good on the internet but when coon fingered they looked like boiled spincters. I just personally can't afford to critique them on the internet. Yall have it the way you want. I have trouble enough just trying to find the way to the bathroom.
 
Mr Fisk,
You are one funny man.Love the way you present the language.
Randy
 
Keith Montgomery said:
You can be direct and still be sensitive to someone's feelings. It is all in how you present your criticism.
Click to expand...

I can't improve on that. The limitations in forming an opinion on a knife based on a photo alone are clear and they are substantial. That said, if you choose to offer criticism of a knife someone has posted it can be done constructively and respectfully without resort to gratuitous and caustic harshness. Describing someone's work as a "waste of steel" - for example - would be an approach I would avoid.

Jerry - you need to write a book man. Even the black and white print would be highly colourful.

Roger
 
Keith Montgomery said:
..... I don't get to many shows so have based most of my purchasing decisions on photos of knives sent to me by makers and those that I have seen in books, magazines and on the internet. Though I would like handling knives to be big part of my purchasing decision, many times pictures and the reputation of the maker are all you have to go on. .......

.
Click to expand...

:( I am feeling it there with you Keith, and find myself in exactly the same situation - thats why I surreptitiously dropped in the suggestion of a group of like minded collectors exchanging candid views and experiences off the forum! :D

Stephen
 
I've been thinking about this one since we talked about it Steve.

Often times I live by the wise words of Thumper's momma---if I ain't got nothin' nice to say, I don't say nothin' at all.

My Grandma puts it even better, "Never miss a good opportunity to keep your mouth shut..."

Most times the "critique" factor we're talking about here: is not liking how someone did ether a certain element of construction or maybe just the entire design. And really, those both can be boiled down to personal preference.

I know of some REALLY big name makers that do stuff I don't care for. But it wouldn't do me or them any good for me to say so. I fully realized this at a show when a guy came up to me and went on and on about how he didn't know why people liked my knives so much---"But good for you anyway." he muttered as he walked away.

I stood there dumbfounded. At first I thought, "Wow, my knives must REALLY SUCK!!!" But then I realized that he just doesn't care for my style, and for whatever reason, it bothers him SO MUCH that other people do like my knives, that he felt the need to let me know.

In the end, it made me think he was an ass, and it didn't change my thoughts on what I make at all.

Now how you differentiate between saying something that will help a guy to make better stuff or just hurt his feelings is a tough call. That bowie of mine would be a perfect example of how tough this could be.

I like how it's done, and wouldn't change it, even though you don't like it....but I also don't have paper thin skin, so I wasn't deeply offended or hurt... we just agreed to disagree. But I think some folks might have gotten their feelings hurt over that.

But how would you know???? I don't think you do unless you really know that person.

Which takes me back to my g-ma's advice.... and I try not to miss a good opportunity to keep my mouth shut. :D

Nick
 
I think this is a worthwhile thread and long overdue.
I believe that good photographs can be used to critique certain aspects of a knife, but not all of the knife.
One can judge the shape and form, the grace of blade and handle and how well they blend together in a purely aestheic fashion. Some will look at a knife in a photo or on the table and decide right then that it is not for them for what ever reason they may choose. Photos, especially good, clear ones like those by Coop can also reveal flaws in fit and sometimes finish. Just a visual inspection can tell the buyer if the materials are well suited to each other or match up on both sides of a folder.
So I believe that a good, honest critique , based on one's taste and preferences are valid on the net through good photos.
Having said that, there are things that cannot be judged merely by visual inspection. A knife is a tool and a companion. It must feel right in the hand of the user (not necessarily all hands); It must have balance and feel like an extension of the hand and, it must perform well under varied conditions.
Whether the knife is a folder or fixed blade, it must cut to the satisfaction of the user and a folder must function well under almost all conditions.
These attributes can only be evaluated by the user, to his satisfaction, with the knife in his hand.
So I think that web photos are valid for what they are, eye candy that piques or suppresses interest in a particular knife. This is an important first step in acquiring a knife to cherish.But I would put greater faith in the critiques of those who own the knives and have used them or knives like them.
For a knifemaker, critiques and criticism are more important than praise although we all prefer the latter to the former. "Helpful suggestions" ( as I prefer to call the criticisms) only aid the maker in refining his work over time.
 
Stephen F said:
:( I am feeling it there with you Keith, and find myself in exactly the same situation - thats why I surreptitiously dropped in the suggestion of a group of like minded collectors exchanging candid views and experiences off the forum! :D

Stephen
Click to expand...

This is a good point Stephen. I don't get to nearly as many shows as I would like, but that doesn't mean that the information available there is lost to me. For almost every major show I will know one or two of the collector / user / enthusiast attendees and I'm not at all shy about asking them about what they thought about the knives of a number of makers whose work I'm interested in, and the names of any makers I should be interested in. I have gained a wealth of information that way. Off-forum discussions do tend to be far more frank and candid.

Cheers,

Roger
 
I have suggested off-line discussions in certain situations. As some have referred here, there are individuals predisposed to criticism of a brand or maker who hold no qualms about jumping in and offering there decidedly one-sided opinion. This is alright in our free world. But if it's an across-the-board negativity on a forum, and the criticism is constant and frequent, especially within a given thread, the defining term is a troll. At this juncture, I and others have said if your beef, to you, is real, then take it up privately with the brand company or maker. To post what amounts to vitriole, whether with strong direct words or softer tone, on a public forum is grandstanding and trying to influence others so as to harm the company or maker they are disparaging. It is certainly not constructive. In a word, it's an agenda.
 
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