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Critique and consequence
- Thread starter Kohai999
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- Feb 27, 2003
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Knives have to be handled, to be fully appreciated. This is what sets knives appart from conventional art, and is a crucial element to enjoying your collection, imho.
Photographs are a very valuable tool because they permit you to quickly filter through thousands of knives, based on their simple appearance. If the overall shape and style of a knife does not capture your initial interest, there is no point in giving it further consideration, from a collector's point of view.
I think that your question is "when and how do you express criticism"?
Well, if I have a positive comment about a knife, I have no problem or hesitation tossing in my two pennies worth.
If it is OK, but doesn't really excite me, I don't bother to comment.
IF, it is the most disgusting and ugly hunk of scrap metal this side of the Kyber Pass, I absolutely refuse to comment. I just roll my eyes and move on. One man's treasure is another's trash and visa versa. What is the point?
IF I know the maker or collector VERY WELL, I will sometimes ask a gentle question along the lines of, "What the F'ck'n heck were you thinking when you bought or made that THING? BUT only in private! This happens very rarely, because all of them have very good taste, but MISTAKES do happen.
Usually, my private criticisms (positive and negative) revolve around relative merit of ABS MS or JS fixed blade makers and how that is, or is not reflected in their prices. Also as with any profession, some guys are JERKS. I avoid owning knives made by jerks as much as possible. What downer being reminded of a Bozo everytime you look at one of your knives.
I just hang in there, buy what pleases me, and enjoy the friends that I make.
Photographs are a very valuable tool because they permit you to quickly filter through thousands of knives, based on their simple appearance. If the overall shape and style of a knife does not capture your initial interest, there is no point in giving it further consideration, from a collector's point of view.
I think that your question is "when and how do you express criticism"?
Well, if I have a positive comment about a knife, I have no problem or hesitation tossing in my two pennies worth.
If it is OK, but doesn't really excite me, I don't bother to comment.
IF, it is the most disgusting and ugly hunk of scrap metal this side of the Kyber Pass, I absolutely refuse to comment. I just roll my eyes and move on. One man's treasure is another's trash and visa versa. What is the point?
IF I know the maker or collector VERY WELL, I will sometimes ask a gentle question along the lines of, "What the F'ck'n heck were you thinking when you bought or made that THING? BUT only in private! This happens very rarely, because all of them have very good taste, but MISTAKES do happen.
Usually, my private criticisms (positive and negative) revolve around relative merit of ABS MS or JS fixed blade makers and how that is, or is not reflected in their prices. Also as with any profession, some guys are JERKS. I avoid owning knives made by jerks as much as possible. What downer being reminded of a Bozo everytime you look at one of your knives.
I just hang in there, buy what pleases me, and enjoy the friends that I make.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
I worded this question a specific way, and some answered the question, and some didn't.
I realize that this is a general knife discussion, it says so right up top in the little blue letters. Interestingly enough, for a public and open forum, no true newbies posted. Thus far it has been veterans of this forum, and some very experienced makers weighing in. So at the very least, I am getting responses from the intended contributors.
I asked at what point is critique requested on this forum, and based upon the responses, I think it breaks down into two different types of responses:
1) At no point is direct critique requested on this forum, if you have something unpleasant to say, take it offline, so that this does not become public humiliation, or an approximation of such. (specific example, my posting on the Russian Guy's Damascus Dagger) OR
2) Critique is all right, but point out the good stuff, and gently mention the bad, or couch it by saying that you realize that this is your opinion. If it starts to look personal, the critic, it's gonna get jumped on (specific example, the Whole Bob T. thread), and shut down eventually.
If I am correct, than I can live with that, and will conduct myself accordingly in the future. At least some discussion occured, and I thought that it was productive.
Of course you have to handle a knife to truly appreciate and judge it. It's the same as asking someone if they like the way a meal tastes before they have eaten it. Without eating it, you only have your eyes and nose to give you initial impressions. ( I don't like brussells sprouts, so I can see if they are in this meal)
Photographs(good ones) can tell you things like blade to handle ratio, handle treatments, is it wide blade or a thin one?
You can spot some flaws in a good picture, like a grain flaw, or a spot what may be a crack. These can help in the formation of a constructive critique.
You can see a poorly formed or run off hamon on a Japanese style knife, or simply just a "bad" or "boring" hamon. This matters in Japanese blades, it is not opinion, it is fact. A blade with run-off hamon, poorly executed hamon or simply, an unattractive hamon is the least desired of a given group.
I would always say that one MUST handle a knife to FULLY critique it. I would also say that as you get to know the characteristics of a knifemaker's work, that there are reasonable expectations that you can develop and this helps add to your ability to critique what you are seeing, when looking at photographs.
Jerry, "coon fingering" just sounds dirty to me, and I can't bring myself to say it without laughing
. I get your point, and were I in your position, I would gave the same opinion, that pictures are not very useful in a critique.
For me, pictures tell me if I am interested in buying the knife. So do a wide host of other inputs (meeting the makers, being referred to them by a mutual friend, handling the work....).
I would say that I have made my initial purchasing decisions from a picture about 50% percent of the time. That is roughly 150 custom knives in 20 years. I was disappointed, very disappointed, twice, which would make this like a 1%-2% rate of dissatisfaction with what I have purchased, product, not process.
From a business perspective, that is an excellent rate of satisfaction, even though you want to keep it above 99%, best case scenario
I have been blessed with "a good eye", but excluding that, it seems to me that pictures are a very strong element of critique to be formed. They are not the be all/end all, but they are an excellent tool.
Thanks everyone for joining in. It helps me a lot, and I think it ultimately helps all of us.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
I realize that this is a general knife discussion, it says so right up top in the little blue letters. Interestingly enough, for a public and open forum, no true newbies posted. Thus far it has been veterans of this forum, and some very experienced makers weighing in. So at the very least, I am getting responses from the intended contributors.
I asked at what point is critique requested on this forum, and based upon the responses, I think it breaks down into two different types of responses:
1) At no point is direct critique requested on this forum, if you have something unpleasant to say, take it offline, so that this does not become public humiliation, or an approximation of such. (specific example, my posting on the Russian Guy's Damascus Dagger) OR
2) Critique is all right, but point out the good stuff, and gently mention the bad, or couch it by saying that you realize that this is your opinion. If it starts to look personal, the critic, it's gonna get jumped on (specific example, the Whole Bob T. thread), and shut down eventually.
If I am correct, than I can live with that, and will conduct myself accordingly in the future. At least some discussion occured, and I thought that it was productive.
Of course you have to handle a knife to truly appreciate and judge it. It's the same as asking someone if they like the way a meal tastes before they have eaten it. Without eating it, you only have your eyes and nose to give you initial impressions. ( I don't like brussells sprouts, so I can see if they are in this meal)
Photographs(good ones) can tell you things like blade to handle ratio, handle treatments, is it wide blade or a thin one?
You can spot some flaws in a good picture, like a grain flaw, or a spot what may be a crack. These can help in the formation of a constructive critique.
You can see a poorly formed or run off hamon on a Japanese style knife, or simply just a "bad" or "boring" hamon. This matters in Japanese blades, it is not opinion, it is fact. A blade with run-off hamon, poorly executed hamon or simply, an unattractive hamon is the least desired of a given group.
I would always say that one MUST handle a knife to FULLY critique it. I would also say that as you get to know the characteristics of a knifemaker's work, that there are reasonable expectations that you can develop and this helps add to your ability to critique what you are seeing, when looking at photographs.
Jerry, "coon fingering" just sounds dirty to me, and I can't bring myself to say it without laughing
. I get your point, and were I in your position, I would gave the same opinion, that pictures are not very useful in a critique.For me, pictures tell me if I am interested in buying the knife. So do a wide host of other inputs (meeting the makers, being referred to them by a mutual friend, handling the work....).
I would say that I have made my initial purchasing decisions from a picture about 50% percent of the time. That is roughly 150 custom knives in 20 years. I was disappointed, very disappointed, twice, which would make this like a 1%-2% rate of dissatisfaction with what I have purchased, product, not process.
From a business perspective, that is an excellent rate of satisfaction, even though you want to keep it above 99%, best case scenario
I have been blessed with "a good eye", but excluding that, it seems to me that pictures are a very strong element of critique to be formed. They are not the be all/end all, but they are an excellent tool.
Thanks everyone for joining in. It helps me a lot, and I think it ultimately helps all of us.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Messages
- 2,761
NickWheeler said:
You might say he was a boiled sphincter...
You know, I often feel that some makers are being slightly disingenuous when they post pics of a newly made knife and ask for criticism. In my heart of hearts, I believe many of them are not wanting public criticism, but just to show off their new knife, get exposure, and be praised for their work, the request for criticism is to make them appear to not be fishing for compliments. Are there makers who truly do want public criticism of their work, yes, I'm sure, but it's hard to know who is who.
However, if a maker does ask for criticism, or even says he wants our "comments", then has has, as the saying goes, and quite literally, "asked for it".
And, as long as the comments are posed in a sensitive and constructive, as in, not rude way, there shouldn't be a problem.Now, we all know there are certain makers who have, shall we say, a very vocal and loyal following, and these fans can be awfully sensitive to any preceived criticism directed towards their knife maker idol, and may not kill you for it, but they may threaten to.
I find this ridiculous, but it's true, and you have to know your audience, on another forum, I suspect you know the one... I wouldn't dream of ever saying anything against Emerson for example, I'll say it here, I have said it here, that I think his custom knives are excellent in design, but mediocre in quality, and the production models, frankly are pretty bad, but, I acknowledge his powerful influence on the tactical knife market and give him credit for that. I can say this here if asked, or in response to a post on this issue, but it wouldn't serve any purpose to say this over there, where it simply cannot be debated without emotion obscuring any chance of meaningful debate. Know your audience, and assess whether your criticism is truly being asked for, or only seems to be asked for, and assess whether or not your audience will be at all receptive to your criticisms and if they will serve a constructive purpose, if not, there is no reason to say anything, is there?
Having said all that, I think you're all just a bunch of boiled sphincters anyway and, I think this post really sucks, but that's just my opinion...
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
Lots of good posts guys!
Ari brings up a good point about makers posting work. Most times, "What do you think?" or "All comments and thoughts appreciated," translates to---
"WhooHoo!!! I'm so damn proud of this thing I couldn't wait to post it here on the forums! Now I'm gonna' sit back and watch the compliments roll in!!!! YEEEAAAAA!!!"
I readily admit I've had some I was quite proud of...and didn't really want to hear anything bad. So I learned to say, "Here it is, This is what it is, Thanks for looking."
[a little off Steve's point, but the following applies to the conversation:]
Simply getting compliments doesn't make you better at making knives. A maker does need to get critiques (IMVHO). I really am not sure just how many Mastersmiths I've dragged to my tables at shows and begged them to look at my work and give me honest opinions. While it stings at first, they'll tell you information that will ACTUALLY MAKE YOU GET BETTER!!!
So if I really want a critique, I ask a maker or collector in person. So I can get that personal connection, and so they can actually have a chance to look the piece over.
The ONE thing that almost always gets me to post but I don't....is when a maker has a handle that absolutely does not "flow" into the blade and vice-versa. There's no excuse! lol, but like Peter says, one man's trash...
But back to Steve's point. I think you can almost always see enough in a picture to know if you like the knife or not. Afterall, it's usually the overall lines and material choice that grab you, and you can definitely see that in pics.
Hey Steve, if nothing else, you got Peter to post his longest post I've ever seen!
-Nick-
Ari brings up a good point about makers posting work. Most times, "What do you think?" or "All comments and thoughts appreciated," translates to---
"WhooHoo!!! I'm so damn proud of this thing I couldn't wait to post it here on the forums! Now I'm gonna' sit back and watch the compliments roll in!!!! YEEEAAAAA!!!"
I readily admit I've had some I was quite proud of...and didn't really want to hear anything bad. So I learned to say, "Here it is, This is what it is, Thanks for looking."
[a little off Steve's point, but the following applies to the conversation:]
Simply getting compliments doesn't make you better at making knives. A maker does need to get critiques (IMVHO). I really am not sure just how many Mastersmiths I've dragged to my tables at shows and begged them to look at my work and give me honest opinions. While it stings at first, they'll tell you information that will ACTUALLY MAKE YOU GET BETTER!!!
So if I really want a critique, I ask a maker or collector in person. So I can get that personal connection, and so they can actually have a chance to look the piece over.
The ONE thing that almost always gets me to post but I don't....is when a maker has a handle that absolutely does not "flow" into the blade and vice-versa. There's no excuse! lol, but like Peter says, one man's trash...
But back to Steve's point. I think you can almost always see enough in a picture to know if you like the knife or not. Afterall, it's usually the overall lines and material choice that grab you, and you can definitely see that in pics.
Hey Steve, if nothing else, you got Peter to post his longest post I've ever seen!
-Nick-
- Joined
- Mar 31, 1999
- Messages
- 839
Steve G
There was indeed some good information here in these postings.
What I am about to say is my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the mangament.
The thing is you have to know how to critique. You can't just go in there and slam someone and think thats critiquing. Say for instance the posting on the russian piece. What you were posting was your opinion on the basic outline or photograph, not a critique. The ABS is considering trying to put some seminars together that teaches how to critique. That is a lot to wrap your gums around so we are still laying out just how to do this. It is like being an art critic. You can say you are one but till you have creditials you are just stating opinions. At this point the ABS is doing seminars on teaching critiquing for having a maker looking at a makers own work, but this takes time. If you could critique well enough by photographs there would be no need to ask the makers to bring their work for inspection for their stamps in the ABS or to enter the Guild. Critiquing is a word that is over used like the word custom made as far as cutlery goes.
Its like I have heard people slam young up and coming makers saying their work looks like ole so and so's or, you do this just like ole Bob. When a bird pecks his way out of the egg he can't fly. It takes time, he has to grow his feathers and jump up and down for awhile. Knifemakers are the same way. I know that Mike Williams and Ed Caffrey both that particpate in this forum wrestle with proper critique and teaching beginning judges proper procedure for the JS stamps.
Years ago, and the maker shall remain nameless cause he is still in the biz, was asked to critique a makers work, he looked at the knife and then said, "I would not take that to a dog fight" and then he threw the knife as far as he could. Needless to say the young maker is no longer in the biz. Ya gotta be careful.
Ari, that cracked me up. You are a hoot.
There was indeed some good information here in these postings.
What I am about to say is my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the mangament.
The thing is you have to know how to critique. You can't just go in there and slam someone and think thats critiquing. Say for instance the posting on the russian piece. What you were posting was your opinion on the basic outline or photograph, not a critique. The ABS is considering trying to put some seminars together that teaches how to critique. That is a lot to wrap your gums around so we are still laying out just how to do this. It is like being an art critic. You can say you are one but till you have creditials you are just stating opinions. At this point the ABS is doing seminars on teaching critiquing for having a maker looking at a makers own work, but this takes time. If you could critique well enough by photographs there would be no need to ask the makers to bring their work for inspection for their stamps in the ABS or to enter the Guild. Critiquing is a word that is over used like the word custom made as far as cutlery goes.
Its like I have heard people slam young up and coming makers saying their work looks like ole so and so's or, you do this just like ole Bob. When a bird pecks his way out of the egg he can't fly. It takes time, he has to grow his feathers and jump up and down for awhile. Knifemakers are the same way. I know that Mike Williams and Ed Caffrey both that particpate in this forum wrestle with proper critique and teaching beginning judges proper procedure for the JS stamps.
Years ago, and the maker shall remain nameless cause he is still in the biz, was asked to critique a makers work, he looked at the knife and then said, "I would not take that to a dog fight" and then he threw the knife as far as he could. Needless to say the young maker is no longer in the biz. Ya gotta be careful.
Ari, that cracked me up. You are a hoot.
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2002
- Messages
- 285
A wise maker once told me that there are three people who may critique a knife. The maker of said knife himself, someone the maker asks for a critique, and the person buying the knife....errrr something like that. That summed it up nicely for me. Good discussion.
Brett
Brett
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- Dec 10, 2003
- Messages
- 1,620
I believe that anytime a person posts a picture they are seeking feedback...they just don't always get the feedback they desire. The same thing happens at knife shows, a knife is presented to a potential buyer and sometimes he wishes it was more this and less that, a little longer, a little shorter a different color etc, etc... I also believe there is a disproportional amount of praise versus willingness buy. In other words many people give out praise much more willingly than they do cold hard cash. In some instances there is a desire and willingness purchase, but an absence of funds, thus the praise is the only payment possible. I have made a few criticisms and for the most part they've been taken well. On the other hand there have been many more occasions where I felt I had a valid criticism, but knew it wouldn't be received well so I passed.
On the issue of pictures...I think there is a point where the skills and abilities of the PhotoShop user surpass that of the knife maker and a line is crossed where the image becomes the ART, and as such is no longer representative of the knife depicted.
On the issue of pictures...I think there is a point where the skills and abilities of the PhotoShop user surpass that of the knife maker and a line is crossed where the image becomes the ART, and as such is no longer representative of the knife depicted.
Gossman Knives
Edged Toolmaker
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- 9,398
That about sums it up perfectly.jbgatlin said:
Scott
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2000
- Messages
- 317
A great discussion guys! This is what forums ought to be.
A factor in critiqueing anyones work is the fact that you as the critic are also putting your reputation; at whatever level it is; on the line also. Bashing good work or praising bad work will not improve your standing in the community; both personally and business wise.
Critiqueing must also be in perspective to the goals of the maker.
What level are they at?
What goals are they aspiring to?
Do they REALLY want to know?
Ari; you better stay away from Fisk. He will ruin your mind.
mike
A factor in critiqueing anyones work is the fact that you as the critic are also putting your reputation; at whatever level it is; on the line also. Bashing good work or praising bad work will not improve your standing in the community; both personally and business wise.
Critiqueing must also be in perspective to the goals of the maker.
What level are they at?
What goals are they aspiring to?
Do they REALLY want to know?
Ari; you better stay away from Fisk. He will ruin your mind.
mike
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Messages
- 2,369
Here is an example of an honest knife crititique that I made in response to another collector's request, of my opinion. The Knife is by an ABS MS and priced in the middle teens.
Good, but not exciting, over priced. I have not handled his work.
The Damascus doesn't do much for me, The blade shape and guard are Bowie 101. The Handle is extremely well done and beautifully executed.
Now that I have ruined your day, look at this....
Good, but not exciting, over priced. I have not handled his work.
The Damascus doesn't do much for me, The blade shape and guard are Bowie 101. The Handle is extremely well done and beautifully executed.
Now that I have ruined your day, look at this....
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Messages
- 2,761
Mike too late, Jerry has given us all some images we won't soon forget, or recover from...
In another thread, in which I showed off my trio of new Hanson bowies, I think there is an excellent example of how to politely and properly critique a knife, by Joss, in which he gave his opinion on one element of Don's design. I see nothing wrong with him stating his opinion on a knife, or an element thereof, in a polite, non-confrontational manner, to which I appropriately responded:
In another thread, in which I showed off my trio of new Hanson bowies, I think there is an excellent example of how to politely and properly critique a knife, by Joss, in which he gave his opinion on one element of Don's design. I see nothing wrong with him stating his opinion on a knife, or an element thereof, in a polite, non-confrontational manner, to which I appropriately responded: