CRKT KASPER/CRAWFORD OPINIONS WANTED!

[Jim March]

It's a good knife.

BUT...

I went to a gun show recently to buy a carry knife for my roommate. In the US, that's a good place to find internet-price-level knives yet be able to fondle 'em. I fully expected I'd be getting him a KFF but...that's not what happened.

For a small amount more, I found him a Spyderco Wayne Goddard Lightweight. Same blade length class, much lighter, the grip is "fight capable" because your hand can't run up the blade on a hard stab, the steel is ATS55 and has held up well to constant "blue collar" use (he's a high-end car audio and electrical tech) and it "doesn't look evil". Sure enough, six months later he still carries it everywhere and is more than pleased.

Downsides in comparison to the KFF: the Goddard is a Zytel lockback. I had to hand-pick a particularly slick opener.

In my opinion, the lock is probably a bit weaker than the KFF once the CRKT manual secondary safety is engaged, but the Goddard is *stronger* than the KFF linerlock without the safety. I believe that in a sudden street attack, it's better to have a strong "single stage" lock that doesn't take any extra thought to deal with. My concern with the CRKT system is that in a fight, your concentration needs to be someplace other than your thumb engaging the safety...such matters happen *fast*.

The Goddard was available for about $5 more than the large KFF.

I had some more commentary on the subject here:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/002196.html

Jim

 

[Bugs3x]

I've wondered how these double entries happen. Well, my first time. Still don't know. Sorry --

Bugs

[This message has been edited by Bugs3x (edited 03-08-2001).]

 

[Bugs3x]

Jim March -- per the thread you provided, and what you implied less strongly in this thread, you appear to think that either all of CRKT's liner locks, or all liner locks without something extra like LAWKS are worthless. I think that sort of blanket vilification is hardly rational.

Along the same lines, it wasn't until a bit before I started reading this forum that I realized that anyone took Spydercos seriously. Finally figured out who Cold Steel was talking about when making their lock strength claims too.

I haven't experience enough to really compare liner locks with lockbacks, since I have only lockbacks. I'm certainly not going to any efforts to compare them myself either. But, one thing I always pay some attention to the potential liability of products. I have trouble believing that so many well-reputed manufacturers -- or even custom makers -- would blithely send out the door something that has a strong chance of getting very deep inside their pocketbooks. If none of them have any ethics or care about quality, then an awful lot of money is being wasted by a lot of knife knuts and collectors.

The Goddard looks like a decent knife for the money. I certainly have a lot of regards for it's namesake. But, I have to tell you that if the situation existed where I was sticking a knife into somebody's ribs, I'd far rather have the CRKT CFF in my hands, even without having used the LAWKS than the Goddard. I think the CFF might just go on through ribs, where the Goddard would probably stop very suddenly.

I frankly doubt there are very many situations where an extra 1/10th of a second is going to make the difference between life and death. (To apply the LAWKS) It didn't in the "Old West". Certainly your friend's occupation may make the Goddard a better knife for him, but I doubt most of the contributors to this thread would want to swap with him.

Just my .02 worth.

Bugs

 

[Jim March]

First, I do not blanket-condemn linerlocks. I do think there's two different ways they can fail: outright, due to poor design or "grip slip" wherein your own finger flesh gets into the lock and releases the lever.

Integral locks are a linerlock variant immune to that latter problem. And if you grip them in the right place, your own strength reinforces the lock. Nonetheless, we have a report right here of a $500 integral lock made by an excellent maker, accidently closing on somebody's finger. A spine hit seems to have been a factor but it could have been a twisting motion too. It failed in a way I predicted it could, based on drawings I saw of the knife before the first one was ever ground. Ask Darrel Ralph if you don't believe me.

See also:
http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum64/HTML/002667.html - this isn't just theory.

Now, without the LAWKS engaged, numerous people on BF have had the KFF fail the "spine whack test" pioneered by Joe Talmadge. Various Spyderco Zytels, Goddard included, have generally passed that test well and the mid-back linerlocks don't usually catch somebody's accidental release grip.

We know from a source inside KFF that they shaved down the release tab to avoid accidental "white knuckle" closures.

So if linerlocks sometimes fold up, even really good high-end ones, why no lawsuits?

Easy - the majority are just "band-aid" affairs, most of the rest are fixed with simple stitches. Only a failure in full-tilt combat poses much serious risk...but such a failure would be really, REALLY bad as it would allow the assailant to kill you. And in that extremely rare case, the one held legally liable would be the assailant.

As to the LAWKS. Speed is only half the issue. If some lunatic is charging at you with a lead pipe, there will be a LOT more on your mind than a mechanical switch 1/8th of an inch across. I think any reduction in complexity at a moment like that is a plus.

And finally, there's stabbing ability. Ever seen a wide variety of blade shapes and types tested against a surplus free-hanging kevlar vest? I have. Walt was there too, probably others around here remember Knifignugen One? *Everything* blew through that vest, single edge, double, blunt spine, false edge, it just didn't matter. As long as it's sharp, I can assure you that the Goddard will stab every bit as well as the KFF. What matters is that the grip doesn't allow a "slip-up" accident; the Goddard is particularly good in that area, as is the KFF.

Jim

 

[Alan Antopol]

Folks,

Know Jim. He knows >>> more than I do about this subject. He suggested that I get a Rekat Carnivore. Have and like it very much. Blade is modified D2. Just bought a used ATS-34 Carnivore via Individual Sales for just > $76 all in. Would look for a relative bargin like that, since the steel and (axis) lock are > better than the CRTK "Carnivore".

Re the Goddard:

1. Clip is moveable. Can unscrew it with a quarter. Thus can carry it strong or weak side.

2. Having small hands, I sometimes "run out of thumb" when opening it.

Interesting thread - Thanks to all of you.

Alan

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Alan Antopol

 

[Bugs3x]

Jim -- I followed the other thread you referred to. Should have been more specific, but since both described same situation/knife, didn't particularize.

You made the following statements in the other thread: "First, the lock is stronger than the CRKT system *without* the safety engaged; once you flip the safety, the CRKTs pull equal or maybe slightly ahead but in a high-speed mess, you might not have time to think about the safety. And without the safety, that's a lousy lock.

We need to re-think support of the CRKTs, until they switch to a real lock and/or improve the steel to at least AUS8."

I perceived "lousy lock" and "real lock" to be pretty broad condemnation of either CRKT's liner locks specifically, or all liner locks. Maybe you meant only the KFF.

In the for what it's worth department, I don't have nearly as many CRKT knives as I would like to. Of those I do have, only the M16-14 has AUS8 steel, the others all have AUS6. None of the AUS6 blades have a single spot of anything on them, but the M16 blade looks like sh!t. Partly my failure to treat it properly for sure, but my treatment of my knives is pretty consistent. I don't use knives a whole lot, though I carry them non-stop, and I really appreciate steel that doesn't require a lot of maintenance.

Bugs

 

[Jim March]

Yours isn't the only M16 blade I've seen with funky spot-rust. It's not a function of the steel, rather the finish and possibly the heat-treat, although I personally suspect it's the finish. I have a pair of ATS34 CRKT Apaches with bead-blast blades that did that.

Bead-blasting radically increases the surface area. It's cheaper than a real polish job. I've had several full-polished AUS8 Cold Steels that never showed a lick of rust, and none of my ATS34 pieces ever rusted.

As to the locks...I have certain opinions on the matter. More details on a new post I just did titled "an open letter to CRKT" on this forum. In my opinion, a low-end mass-produced linerlock without a safety or with the safety unengaged is indeed a lousy lock in too many cases. With the LAWKS, once tripped strength goes up and that's good, but that switch is possibly too much to think about in a fast street encounter.

The REKAT Carny is what the KFF wishes it was

. It's got a single-stage lock that's at *least* as strong as the KFF lock with both "stages" engaged, and probably stronger.
If CRKT could duplicate it's functionality in AUS6 steel to keep costs down and not rust when you bead-blast it, and heavier because they can't afford G10, but otherwise duplicate at least it's lock reliability for about the same price as the KFF or a hair more, they'd *own* that price range.

There's a genuine need for a reliable defensive folder in the $45 range street price. CRKT is *close* to being able to ship such a thing but the liner lock is holding them back. At present, I think the Spydie Goddard Light is a better buy in most cases.

Jim

 

[Bugs3x]

Jim -- may or may not respond to the other thread. But, wanted to at least express a couple notions here.

I've spent quite a bit of time reading old threads in the last week or two. A number of them about CRKT knives. One of the most common concepts that runs throughout many, many postings is that the quality, in terms of fit and finish, and the usefulness of many CRKT knives is way above that of many much more expensive knives. Quality is as qualit does. The fact the prices are low shouldn't be a real factor in determining whether a knife is safe/reliable. Simply dismissing them all as "low end" is again, IMHO, a blanket sort of condemnation.

How about Outdoor Edge? Many folks rave about the Magna and Impulse. They're right there in the same ballpark price-wise, and have liner-locks. When Kim Breed reviewed the Zytel Magna, he tested it's basic construction strength by putting his 190 pounds on the lock, with the tip and butt ends resting on solid objects. Can't help but wonder how the Goddard would do in that test.

I know Spyderco has few lower-priced liner-locks, but do have some higher priced models with that lock. Does the higher price guarantee a better lock? Are there never any problems with any Spyderco liners?

A number of forumites have positively compared their CRKT liner-locks with those of Benchmade. I have only 3 folders that aren't CRKT. Both the Gigand and Kershaw strike me as much lower in the quality and design departments, excepting of course the SPeed Safe mechanism in the Kershaw.

So, how come it is CRKT that gets the letter? Again, you iterated tonite that you weren't universally condemning CRKT liner-locks or generic liner locks, then turn around and start the other post.

I've enjoyed many of your posts. Read most of your material on your ongoing fight with the California establishment. Frankly, I'm unable to understand what appears to me to be a very rigid bias, with no stated basis than that some CFFs had lock problems and allegedly they changed something on that.

Before I forget, am sure you know that CRKT will soon release the Blade Lock. On their site, they clearly state their belief that their newest Walker-designed lock is the strongest yet. Is it possible for such a "low end" company to have the best?

I'm sorry. Am getting carried away here. It's just that I see inconsistencies in what you've said tonite, and I jump on the nearest soap box too readily. At least I'm glad to know you own a couple CRKTs. I just got my first Apache yesterday. It is the first CRKT knife I've bought with too stiff an action. I need to get some good lubrication, and apply it. However, in terms of instant first impressions, I think it may have made a better one on me than any of the others, including the CFF. I love the long handle. It is easily the best "yawara stick-type" knife when closed of any I've seen or heard of -- well, except for the "It happened to me guy" in the Tactical Knives story who hit a would-be carjacker with the butt of his closed Apache.

Rambling. Must finally be getting tired. 0344 here now. Didn't mean to blather.

Bugs

 

[HUNTER3897]

I disagree with Jim on a number of points, but I will tell you this. Listen to what he says. He has more passion and experience in self defense than anyone I have come across. I don't think that he has any personal grudge with CRKT. Rather, I think he is just displaying his passion for finding a knife that regular folk can afford and rely on. That being said, I still think you are way off on the LAWKS Jim. Every motor skill we use when we draw a knife-- reaching for it, pulling it out, finding the thumb stud, flicking it open, it all happens without a second thought. Engaging the LAWKS becomes the same thing. I don't buy the time thing either. Your thumb naturally rests right where the barrel for the LAWKS is. It doesn't require any thinking or time to push your thumb forward. It becomes habit after only a few draws. You could easily do it while you are moving forward for your first slash/stab. I have done this a couple hundred times in practice and the extra time argument just doesn't hold water. I don't want to repeat everything I said in the other thread so I will encourage you to click on the link to Jim's thread on the "$40 fighting folder". There is a lot of good info and these same arguments are debated there. I would also direct you to read what I said on why cheap steel doesn't matter in your defensive folder. (Within reason. You obviously don't want steel that is brittle and will snap on you. AUS-6 isn't in that category.) I will repeat here what I said there though. If CRKT makes all of the changes that are on everyone's wish list, the KFF will cease to be the incredible value that it is. It will be pushed into the $100 price range and as I said in the other thread, you should just get a Carnivore. And no, the Carnivore isn't everything that the KFF wishes it could be. The Carnivore wishes it could offer all of the same defensive capabilities that the KFF has at half it's price.

Jim McCullough

p.s.- Jim, I have said it before, but thanks for taking up the battle for us regular folk to have the right to defend ourselves. People like me talk the talk, but you are walking the walk.

edited for grammar
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Next time you feel your life is sooo tough, read this- Some American Heroes

[This message has been edited by HUNTER3897 (edited 03-08-2001).]

 

[Jim March]

First, AUS6 is indeed an acceptable steel for a fighter. No argument.

The "open letter" thread shouldn't be seen as a condemnation of CRKT. On the contrary - the whole point behind that thread, as I just got through clarifying, is that CRKT is closer than any other manufacturer to producing the reliable entry-level fighting folder we need!

So it's not about "picking on them" - I'd like to prod them in the right direction

. (Wouldn't be the first time - I prodded REKAT into making the Sifu

.)

As to the thumb "naturally falling on the LAWKS button" - it shouldn't! No joke, thumb up on the rear spine area is the WRONG place for it to be, for the following reasons:

1) On a hard stab, if the tip hangs up on something (belt buckle or similar is the worst) you could break your thumb. And the LAWKS button sitting right ahead of your thumb makes it worse - ever stub your toe? That's how the end of your thumb is liable to feel.

2) Your grip will lack "flexibility" - you need to be able to snake the tip way up and almost back towards you in a pinch, for a bunch of reasons.

Let's say some fool grabs your knife-wrist. From the "saber" grip with your thumb up where the LAWKS release is, it's harder to roll the cutting edge up and around to nail HIS wrist with the blade. But from a grip where the thumb is down under the knife's body, look how much easier it is to bring the tip up and counter-attack.

So, if you use an "Asian-derived" grip similar to how the Bushido held a sword grip with the forward hand, it's a bit of a transition from the point where you'd trigger the LAWKS. Sure, you can do it, but do you have time? And if that knife hand gets hit in mid-shift, can you hang onto the knife?

Not my cuppa tea, thanks.

Jim

 

[HUNTER3897]

Jim,

You have forgotten more about self defense than I will ever know, so I will not argue with you over thumb placement. I am not afraid to admit when I am out of my league. I will say this though. The CRKT KFF works great for me and if you would have told me ten years ago that I would own a knife of this quality for $40, I would have told you that you were nuts. If you can get them to improve on it and still keep it around $50, I say kudos to you.

Jim McCullough

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Next time you feel your life is sooo tough, read this- Some American Heroes