CRKT spew wharncliffe kind in a better steel?

M

ma tumba

Joined
Apr 5, 2014
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125
Hello folks,

I got this CRKT wharncliffe necker and I really like this form factor, very useful low profile blade. But the tip would not stand anything significant. Any time I use the knife for anything more serious than paper slicing, the tip bends and I need to reprofile it.

I wonder if there is anything similar to this but made out of a better steel?

Thanks!
 
A couple options include the Benchmade/H&K Plan D and the Instigator - both in better & harder steel. Lot of other options out there from Boker and other brands, not to mention some great customs for very reasonable prices...

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The designer, Alan Folts, has an ATS 34 version on his website, fwiw. I have no idea how strong the tip on his custom version is, though.
 
Schrade SCHF 16 necker. It's a Wharncliff style. It's tuff, less than 25 dollars. Comes with kydex sheath. Holds an edge very well. It's called the little pry. The spine is a quarter inch thick, but it has a hollow grind. I've never had issues with the point. It's a great platform for mods too. I'm currently stripping mine for acid stone wash, and then I'm making Osage Orange wood scales. The only complaint I have is that it's a little heavy for a necker, but I plan too wear it scout style on a belt or in a pocket sheath. Don't get me wrong, it still functions as an adequate necker, I just don't like to wear knives around my neck.
 
Spyder59 said:
Schrade SCHF 16 necker. It's a Wharncliff style.
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Not sure how you got there. The SCHF16 is a reverse tanto point with a belly, and doesn't begin to resemble a wharncliffe. You could try the Condor Tangara, although it may be smaller than the SPEW overall.
 
Thank you all guys for the great suggestions! Knifecenter website also suggested some of TOPS knives, so plenty of options to choose from, overall.

But apart from that, for the SPEW blade profile and thickness what do you think would be the best possible steel(s) if my *only* concern is the tip strength? Just in case I go for a custom version. I mean that the thin and very pointy tip 1) would not easily shatter if it hits a hard target and 2) would not break or get permanently bent when exposed to a significant lateral stress.

Thanks!
 
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If you look at Blade HQ, in the knife heading it's called a reverse tanto. But if you look under "blade specification" you will note that the blade style is referred to as "Wharncliff." Hmmm.... "Doesn't even resemble a Wharncliff?"
"That what she said." :D
average gimp said:
Not sure how you got there. The SCHF16 is a reverse tanto point with a belly, and doesn't begin to resemble a wharncliffe. You could try the Condor Tangara, although it may be smaller than the SPEW overall.
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Spyder59 said:
If you look at Blade HQ, in the knife heading it's called a reverse tanto. But if you look under "blade specification" you will note that the blade style is referred to as "Wharncliff." Hmmm.... "Doesn't even resemble a Wharncliff?"
"That what she said." :D
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Yeah, knife-sellers' descriptions are OFTEN way-off the traditional terminology used to describe knife "anatomy".
To take the SCHF16, that is called a "clip-point" or "spey" blade most everywhere else - a curving belly with a straight spine that is suddenly "clipped" (ground) down into the primary bevel to create a point. Most "clip-point" blades have a rather long section ground away such that the descent form the spine is slower/less dramatic, while a "spey" blade drops suddenly near the tip of the blade.
The "reverse-tanto" terminology really shouldn't be used on a knife with an outward-curving belly like the SCHF16... but that doesn't mean that ANY of these terms are used appropriately by various peddlers. Take the term "choil" for example :D

In any case, a "wharncliffe" blade has a long "drop-point" spine and a flat-edge without belly. A "sheeps-foot" blade is similar except that the drop starts close to the tip and is more dramatic. If there is a curve to the belly, it is neither wharncliffe nor sheepsfoot, but it could be considered a "modified" form of either. ;)
 
ma tumba said:
Thank you all guys for the great suggestions! Knifecenter website also suggested some of TOPS knives, so plenty of options to choose from, overall.

But apart from that, for the SPEW blade profile and thickness what do you think would be the best possible steel(s) if my *only* concern is the tip strength? Just in case I go for a custom version. I mean that the thin and very pointy tip 1) would not easily shatter if it hits a hard target and 2) would not break or get permanently bent when exposed to a significant lateral stress.

Thanks!
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Worry less about steel-type and more about steel hardness and thickness - these two attributes determine the strength of a tip.
That CRKT is made of soft steel 55-56 Rc which does not go well with a very thin tip. The Benchmade Plan D and also a Tops or a boker will likely be made of harder steel and have a thicker tip to provide the strength you seek.

here's another one, the Kabar TDI "Hinderance"

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chiral.grolim said:
Yeah, knife-sellers' descriptions are OFTEN way-off the traditional terminology used to describe knife "anatomy".
To take the SCHF16, that is called a "clip-point" or "spey" blade most everywhere else - a curving belly with a straight spine that is suddenly "clipped" (ground) down into the primary bevel to create a point. Most "clip-point" blades have a rather long section ground away such that the descent form the spine is slower/less dramatic, while a "spey" blade drops suddenly near the tip of the blade.
The "reverse-tanto" terminology really shouldn't be used on a knife with an outward-curving belly like the SCHF16... but that doesn't mean that ANY of these terms are used appropriately by various peddlers. Take the term "choil" for example :D

In any case, a "wharncliffe" blade has a long "drop-point" spine and a flat-edge without belly. A "sheeps-foot" blade is similar except that the drop starts close to the tip and is more dramatic. If there is a curve to the belly, it is neither wharncliffe nor sheepsfoot, but it could be considered a "modified" form of either. ;)
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You've hit the nail right on the head.
 
Well, I understand the importance of geometry for strength but for my purposes a thick tip is irrelevant. Here are just 2 examples of my use of that SPEW today:
1. I had to pick a spring latch which I could access only thru a very narrow clearance between the door and the wall. I had literally thrust the tip point of the knife many times in the metal latch to catch it so I could move it against the spring. The soft steel of the CRKT was totally inadequate for that kind of job. First it got dull right away and second it got bent every time.
2. Next I had to remove a paper ring from a cigar without destroying the gentle leafs. And for that purpose the CRKT worked great, while anything thicker than .1" would not do. By the way nothing I had available did not fit, even the small blade of my SAK crushed the leafs.

But I need a knife for both kinds of tasks, hence the emphasis on the steel since the geometry has been chosen. Plus the CRKT (and the other Bench for that matter) are low profile knives that would not scare innocent people around while the Kabar or the angled Bench would probably do.

Now, I am aware that the harder is the HT the better is the chance for the blade to break. So when I am asking about the most appropriate steel I a mean that I look for the the strongest one for a given Rockwell hardness.
 
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The SPEW has a very fine tip. Honestly, that sorta tip is gonna be pretty fragile no matter what steel it's in.
 
ma tumba said:
Well, I understand the importance of geometry for strength but for my purposes a thick tip is irrelevant...

...Now, I am aware that the harder is the HT the better is the chance for the blade to break. So when I am asking about the most appropriate steel I a mean that I look for the the strongest one for a given Rockwell hardness.
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Before I make a couple points, I'll mention that I've used the sides of credit cards to open doors as you describe, it doesn't require a sharp edge, so don't use a sharp edge. If you do, be prepared to sharpen it afterward. That use is MUCH more stressful than paper-cutting per your OP. Don't use the tip of the knife to press against the latch, if possible use a different tool entirely.

1) What do you mean "a thick tip is irrelevant"? You just described it as being VERY relevant. The tip on the angled Benchmade is quite strong at ~0.015" behind the edge, and you can make the angle to the apex as robust as you need. Again, thickness is cubically related to strength, thicker=stronger, it is more important than any other factor in tip-strength, it is what will prevent bending and breaking.

2) If you need the tip-point to remain sharp, then you just need a harder steel and avoid impacts. The higher the HT does NOT translate to increased breakage, there is much more to what causes a blade to bend vs break than simply Rockwell hardness. Higher rockwell means that the material will not bend or squash as easily, i.e. it is stronger and will not dull as readily.
 
I think all you need is as little an improvement as upgrade to 8cr15mov. It's surprising good stuff, better than aus8 by a hair (IMHO) and adequate for what your describing. You can probably stay in about the same price range. Otherwise you may have to seriously consider a significantly larger investment in a Spiderco type vein.
 
The info regarding the strength being cubic function of thickness is very interesting. I am just wondering which specific geometry it is applicable to? I would expect the function to be quite different for a thin plate, a rod with square cross-section and for a tip which is essentially, for the purpose of this discussion, a cone defined by its opening angle, while the thickness of the rest of the blade is less relevant.

Regardless, I wonder, for a given geometry, what could be an improvement in strength from going from a "cheap steel" to the "best possible" steel, each at its own optimal HT, speaking quantitatively? 10%, 200% or?

BTW a very interesting thread about thin blades made of different quality steels was started yesterday in this furum section.
 
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