Cross-wedged handle on a Genova pattern hatchet

[cityofthesouth]

That is awesome - nicely done!

 

[Ernest DuBois]

I think that many of the lines that you are seeing may be rough marks from rasping.

FourtyTwoBlades would have to say it for sure, but the grain seems clear to me.

I think it's kind of a theoretical argument on a handle this size.
Between the short length, diameter, and how hard it will be swung I can't see breakage being an issue at all.
Looks nice to use, which was probly the primary goal anyway.

Theoretical in what sense? That it probably will not end up breaking?
In the short term as a direct consequence of the grain, chances are you are right.
But as improbable that the handle ends up breaking right away is, another consequence of the exposed ends is more rapid decay and wear that weaken the wood over the long term. Have a look at your old double bitted and how the shoulders are rough on the under side and they are often cracked if not split there. It comes from the exposed end grain where first of all moisture comes in followed by bacteria and decay which break down the wood and weaken it over time. So it's really a long term question, or as you might say issue.
There seems to be, what I regard to a healthy fixation on grain character in handles around here. What's puzzling me in this instance is why this concern is being tossed aside and the attitude, "whatever works" now taking hold. Any one can help me out here?

 

[muleman77]

FourtyTwoBlades would have to say it for sure, but the grain seems clear to me.

Theoretical in what sense? That it probably will not end up breaking?
In the short term as a direct consequence of the grain, chances are you are right.
But as improbable that the handle ends up breaking right away is, another consequence of the exposed ends is more rapid decay and wear that weaken the wood over the long term. Have a look at your old double bitted and how the shoulders are rough on the under side and they are often cracked if not split there. It comes from the exposed end grain where first of all moisture comes in followed by bacteria and decay which break down the wood and weaken it over time. So it's really a long term question, or as you might say issue.
There seems to be, what I regard to a healthy fixation on grain character in handles around here. What's puzzling me in this instance is why this concern is being tossed aside and the attitude, "whatever works" now taking hold. Any one can help me out here?

Only speaking for myself, it's the size of the tool in question mostly.

I'm brand new to this forum, so may not know some of the back story to these topics.

Along with that, I admit to consorting with handles of all orientations. I prefer what is commonly thought of as best, but
I've had very few handle problems, and I'll put on a new one if it breaks. And I use a lot of different axes, a lot of the time.

So I may be less concerned with it than some.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Shipwrights' adze handles generally seem more likely to fail due to being eaten by beetles than by breaking. As noted, I've yet to have any trouble out of these handles, and they are ideally matched to the balance of their respective heads. These handle forms optimize the performance qualities of these particular axes, and a similarly optimized handle for an American, Nordic, or German axe with a larger poll would not be nearly so severe in curvature. I shall be surprised greatly should one of these handles ever fail on my from anything short of overstrikes.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The reason why "concern is being tossed aside" is because while technically you are correct, that concern is outside the relevant range that is useful here. The curves are present to align the handle with the head's center of gravity. This hatchet literally has zero poll to it, and a fairly deep bit. Between the fact that the curves are functional and dictated by the qualities of the head rather than cosmetic appeal, that what amount to very minor sacrifices in handle strength in real-world terms are considered as negligible in this case because of the benefits reaped. Does that make sense?

 

[Ernest DuBois]

This end shot is telling. Eliminate the indications of perspective by shifting the angle slightly and the image would consist exclusively of end grain, the foreground lines of the year rings could even be lined up with the year rings in the background. Essentially the end grain surface of the handle has been doubled.So this perspective tells its story, flip the handle 90 degrees and we get an equally interesting and pertinent story, equally as telling. We can either read the wood and its indications or not. This handle seems to me to go its own way despite the indications. It doesn't have to be that way, in fact I see a piece in the background of one picture that would be interesting to split along the grain and see what would come of it. With planks you are essentially working in two dimension and some interesting things can gotten at. Split around a knot and whatuv you got? Your handle but then with continuous grain in 3-D, (with some luck). Split around that knot in a quarter billet and you are virtually guaranteed your crooked handle with intact grain. Failing that you take your pattern to the woods and look in the branches, roots and gnarled stems for the form that will match. You've got to put the saws away though and go to splittin', split, split, see what happens. The form of your handle is certainly up to you, though I know of many a wooden shoe maker, working hard with axes you might think of as similar in many respects, none with anything near a handle this shape.
Anyway it is true that the form is similar to some shipwright adzes, however there is no comparison to be made. Show me first the shipwright who is using an adze of this type to do anything but carve away very thin shavings where there is no force involved, the handle not made to flex and absorb shock but strictly to produce a given posture.
Still, the wood with its preponderance of short grain on this particular handle will in time tear itself apart with no help from its users. There is too much exposure to the forces of atmosphere that are constantly at work on the wood. As we all know by now wood is hygroscopic and so not existing in a static state but constantly contracting and expanding depending on ever changing conditions and this handle has all that short grain working against it. Just getting back to the shipwright adze, did you ever wonder why so few of these old handles are existing in relation to the number of heads? (how nice, there is smiley back again!)

Mulemann7 I take a similar posture concerning handles in general, they come and they go, 'tmakes me no never-mind 'tall, and I wouldn't want it any other way, every one a chance to improve on the next. But still, there are certain principles I do hold onto all the way when it comet to wood in general.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

If it ever fails in time...I'll just make another! It's just a piece of wood, and the increase in comfort and performance is worth any hypothetical shortening of the handle life. The purpose of any tool is to be useful, and this makes it more useful. I am certain that it will hold up as well as its larger brother has over time. Did you not see the video of it being deliberately subjected to repeated shock? This handle is fine. If you don't like it, make yours differently.

 

[Square_peg]

What’s the “normal” sequence installing cross wedges. Main wedge first,then cross wedges? Cross wedges first? All together?

Several of us are doing them in different sequences and all seem to have good results. I install the cross wedge first in one piece followed by the 2 main wedges. I prefer 3 medium sized wedges to a large wedge and 2 tiny wedges. But I haven't heard of any problems with using 2 small cross wedges.

 

[Square_peg]

The curves are present to align the handle with the head's center of gravity.

Which will increase accuracy by some varying degree. It's a sensible design and well orchestrated. Overall a little heavy for me for a one-handed axe but I don't doubt it will find use.

 

[Agent_H]

What’s the “normal” sequence installing cross wedges. Main wedge first,then cross wedges? Cross wedges first? All together?

I’ve had good luck the last three times with solidly seating the crosswedge first, notching it with a small wood chisel/knife, cutting it off, and then driving the main wedge. Once the main wedge won’t go any farther, I cut it off almost even with the crosswedge, and then drive the two of them together. Seems to work so far.

COTS does a great job of explaining and amazing application of the crosswedge:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1233816-COTS-Project-Thread/page10

There are probably a couple different routes one could go. Might also depend on which way/how much you need to move the tongue around.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Which will increase accuracy by some varying degree. It's a sensible design and well orchestrated. Overall a little heavy for me for a one-handed axe but I don't doubt it will find use.

400g nominal head weight, or about 14.10oz, with current total weight sitting at 1lb 9.4oz

 

[Square_peg]

My bad.. I thought I had read 4 pounds. That's very reasonable. I wish I had one, now!

 

[Ernest DuBois]

Did you not see the video of it being deliberately subjected to repeated shock? This handle is fine. If you don't like it, make yours differently.

I saw and even commented on your video. The physics of the design on paper, the theory of balance and distribution, all that set aside, (because this isn't an argument I've engaged in at all), your and your fellow believers', confidence in the actual handle comes down to faith up until now, a hope that it will be just fine because it looks sufficient. In any case that's the defense of the handle that has been provided so far. You certainly don't have to prove it to anyone as long as you agree that it is hope forming the basis for your justification. Either you hope and believe and have faith in the handle or you provide some rational explanation. Unless there is some engagement on equal footing the discussions go on and on side-by-side but no conclusions are possible. Well, other than, "you do what you want and I'll do what I want".


"The handle is sufficient"
"Ok, how can we know it"?
"Believe me, it's enough, others say so as well".
"Ok, but why is it sufficient"?
"Believe me, it's hickory, it's sufficient".

 

[jblyttle]

Do not allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I saw and even commented on your video. The physics of the design on paper, the theory of balance and distribution, all that set aside, (because this isn't an argument I've engaged in at all), your and your fellow believers', confidence in the actual handle comes down to faith up until now, a hope that it will be just fine because it looks sufficient. In any case that's the defense of the handle that has been provided so far. You certainly don't have to prove it to anyone as long as you agree that it is hope forming the basis for your justification. Either you hope and believe and have faith in the handle or you provide some rational explanation. Unless there is some engagement on equal footing the discussions go on and on side-by-side but no conclusions are possible. Well, other than, "you do what you want and I'll do what I want".


"The handle is sufficient"
"Ok, how can we know it"?
"Believe me, it's enough, others say so as well".
"Ok, but why is it sufficient"?
"Believe me, it's hickory, it's sufficient".

LOL -- I don't have "fellow believers". I have my own personal experience in using these handles. There is some element of faith involved in all materials, especially natural ones. My evidence is that I have actually made and used handles of this sort and have yet to experience a failure. Have you made and used such handles, or is your argument against them purely theoretical? I appreciate all of the good you've done for advancing understandings of the variables at work with wooden handles, but a certain amount of perspective is important. Many cultures have gotten by with woods far less sturdy than hickory, and so there is a relevant range of strain that an axe is realistically subjected to. Strength above and beyond that point is mostly superfluous because it will not be experiencing that level of strain. To date, and I've been using these handles for a few years now, they've been working fine and exhibiting good flex and durability, even when deliberately abused. As handles are ultimately a consumable, I'll not worry too much about it so long as I've done my part during the making of them to make them as strong as I can for the given curves. If it breaks, the improvement in performance is enough to warrant making another just like it.

 

[300Six]

Run out is where the wood ends.

*

This is a perfect example of what an axe handle (whether straight or curved) with vertical end grain (when spying the eye or butt) shouldn't look like when viewed from above (ie aerial or plan view). Most of the handle breaks I've inspected during the past 40 years are the result of 'runout' such as is depicted here. Runout on a elevation view (viewing from the side) is unavoidable when horizontal grain wood is used to make a curved handle. Forum member quinton on the other hand (having grown to appreciate the extra flex (namely shock absorbing properties) of horizontal grain handles exclusively uses riven and air-dried Hickory. Something the majority of us are not able to select for at a handle supplier, hardware store or lumber yard.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Finished. Might take some better photos with my real camera instead of my phone, but nothing left to do now but oil it. I took the edge back even further, too. Did a bunch of test-chopping on a piece of oak and it did great.

 

[Square_peg]

Love it! What a sweet little tool!