Crossada Blade!

Sumbrada77 · Mar 21, 2001

Hello I am trying to get some more information about a type of blade that Guro Inosanto showed and briefly talked about at a seminar. The blades were quite curved and the edge was on the inside. They were typically carried in pairs and drawn cross hip. He callled them Crossadas. Thanks!

Samurai6 · Mar 24, 2001

Sounds like a gununting?

A Crossada is usually a dagger-like blade with a cross guard.

Gaucho · Mar 23, 2001

I agree with Steve. I was just at the AMOK! Spring Intensive Camp last weekend. One half day session was Harimau Silat training with Guro Mike Williams from Middleton, Mass. He had several different types of Indonesian blades there. One was shaped exactly as you describe above and was called a gununting.

The entire Spring Intensive Camp was absolutely awesome, BTW. Prof. Sotis' stuff was terrific, but then we train together every Tuesday, so I expected that. I had never met Guro Mike before, though. Man, does he ever know his sh*t and how to teach it. And Harimau(tiger) style Silat is so wicked effective in realtime and hard to defend against, its scary. I strongly recommend that anyone who is interested in exploring Silat seek him out.

Best Regards,

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.

Dave Fulton · Mar 23, 2001

Actually, they sound more like Kerambits to me. On second thought, I think kerambit is the Indonesian name, so maybe Crossada is what they are called in the P.I. Were they curved knives with a ring at the end of the handle or were they bigger, sword sized?

Gaucho, if memory serves me correctly, Harimau is a style of "tiger" silat that specializes in extremely low stances and ground fighting. If so, I agree that it's amazing stuff that I'd love to learn. Unfortunately, a bad knee prevents me from being able to persue it.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 03-23-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 03-23-2001).]

Gaucho · Mar 24, 2001

Dave,

Hey, how are you? How's your hand? I hope that all is well with you and that you are back to training.

The blades that I saw at the Silat seminar were not kerambits. They were much bigger, the size of a short sword with curved blades sharpened along the inner curve.

You are correct that in Harimau Silat the goal is to get under everything that the opponent can throw- be it fist, stick, blade, or foot- and close, destroying knee and groin, bringing the opponent to the ground to finish him. The interesting thing for me, though, as opposed to grappling, is their ability to take on several opponents at once or one after the other. You just dive under the initial attack and spin and roll, taking them all out, always ready for the next attack. Its a thing of beauty

.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.

Dave Fulton · Mar 25, 2001

Mario,

I'm doing fine, how about you?

The hand is fine, though not 100% (never going to be). I don't notice it most of the time except when doing things like picking up coins or other small things off a counter top. The very tip of the index finger is frozen in the extended position. Fighting wise the only major affect is in empty hands. I used to love to use a single point fist (aka phoenix eye fist) to attack the ribs, muscle groups, etc, but now I can't form the phoenix-eye with my right hand. I've been training since Oct/Nov time frame. Thanks for asking.

The size definitely eliminates any kerambit that I've ever seen or heard of. I have no idea what they could be then.

Yes, I recall a lot of emphasis (in the little bit of Harimau that I've seen) on destroying their base by attacking the legs and groin. When I said "groundfighting", I was refering to the same thing you described, as opposed to ground grappling (as in BJJ). I have serious reservations regarding the viability of BJJ or any of the ground grappling (that I've seen so far) in a real fight ... where "props" (ie knives & such) or friends have the potential to appear. The Harimau IS beautiful stuff ... if only I had two good knees

Take care & train hard.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

[This message has been edited by Dave Fulton (edited 03-25-2001).]

Gaucho · Mar 26, 2001

Ahhh...the phoenix eye fist. Two of my old sifus, George Long and Ron Dong, who taught me Northern White Crane, used to love to do nerve destructions with the phoenix eye. One shot and your whole arm would go dead for minutes! I still use phoenix eyes to this day.

Lately, though I've been exploring more of the natural movements of Kuntao, where you let the forward energy of the ulnar edges of your forearms and your elbows parry and destroy as you close, and your hands act more as feelers looking for the poke to the eye or throat or subclavian nerve or a tiger claw to the face to work that head lever, or for traps, and so on and so forth...

I've found this to be the most effective EHs fighting I've done to date, and I think that it should work well for you too, given the limited ROM of your R index finger. Give it a try and see.

Best Regards,

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.

[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-25-2001).]

Leo Daher · Mar 25, 2001

I have serious reservations regarding the viability of BJJ or any of the ground grappling (that I've seen so far) in a real fight ... where "props" (ie knives & such) or friends have the potential to appear.

A lot of people think they know what BJJ is about, when all they've seen is the tip of the iceberg. For instance, any instructor worth his salt will tell you not to mount your opponent in a street situation.
Besides, it's good to remember that going to the ground might not happen by choice; if you find yourself down, it's good to know what to do, even if it's to get back up ASAP (as it should be, IMHO).

That being said, I'm all for cross-training in the striking arts (not to mention impact weapons, blade and firearms training). A well-rounded education should be the goal.

Leo

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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

Gaucho · Mar 25, 2001

Leo

,

Que tal, Che? I hope that all is well with you.

You and I are on the same page when it comes to crosstraining in all ranges of combat. To be an effective fighter nowadays, one has to be at least proficient in each range.

Ciao,

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.

Leo Daher · Mar 25, 2001

Ola, Mario? Que tal?

Just came back from a short trip to Buenos Aires - I really love it down there! Should be going back sometime in July for vacations.

The ol' lady and I are getting ready for the big move (to the US, that is). She has done really well on the TOEFL, which is a pre-requisite to study there. I can hardly wait!

BTW, I thoroughly enjoyed your post on cutting with big blades. Excellent, as usual.

Ciao,

Leo

PS: I can't remember if I've already told you, but my wife's grampa got me a used copy of "Esgrima Criolla". Haven't started reading it yet though.

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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

Dave Fulton · Mar 26, 2001

Mario,

I've been working along those same lines since I got back into training and realized that the ole Phoenix Eye wasn't working anymore. I've been working on developing the hacking & slapping motions from our system's FMA empty hands system. We use what we call the Tray, which keeps our hands/weapons out in front of our body and our elbows slightly pinched in towards our center-line. One of the things this accomplishes is that in empty hands your forearms & elbows are well positioned to parry & destroy their attacks. Add hacks & slaps to the Tray and you do a pretty nice job of beating on their arms. The Tray is also a key element in how we generate power.

Leo,

Yes, I know that I may end up on the ground against my will. For those moments, we have a local Catch/Hook Wrestling guy that we work with. I prefer the Catch approach because of the directness of it. Try "rolling" BJJ style against someone who has a training knife on their person and you'll see why I prefer the directness of Catch and have reservations about being on the ground in a real fight with a stranger. Btw, my issue is more with the concept of grappling on the ground rather than with BJJ specifically. Why so many people WANT to take someone to the ground in a real fight is as baffling to me as why people will "crash 'n bash" in stick sparring instead of using their footwork.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

[ 03-26-2001: Message edited by: Dave Fulton ]

Leo Daher · Mar 27, 2001

Dave,

Actually, I don't think we disagree that much. I just tried to point out that there's more to BJJ than the "rolling" you see on tournaments and the like.

I think the idea that taking your opponent to the ground is the thing to do stems from no-holds barred events and "duel-like" fights, in which two guys would face each other off in the street to solve some dispute (tough there is bad blood behind it, there's no need to be concerned with weapons and/or multiple assailants).

I agree that deliberately going to the ground in a real-life, uncontroled incident is almost always a bad strategy choice; however, I believe takedowns should be seriously considered. After all, no punch or kick hits harder than the pavement (especially when your opponent doesn't know how to break a fall).

Regards,

Leo

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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

Dave Fulton · Mar 28, 2001

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Leo Daher:
Dave,

Actually, I don't think we disagree that much. I just tried to point out that there's more to BJJ than the "rolling" you see on tournaments and the like. ....

I agree that deliberately going to the ground in a real-life, uncontroled incident is almost always a bad strategy choice; however, I believe takedowns should be seriously considered. After all, no punch or kick hits harder than the pavement (especially when your opponent doesn't know how to break a fall).
</font>

Leo,

I agree that we probably don't disagree all that much. I spent several years studying (a modified derivative of) Hakko-ryu Jujitsu, so I'm not opposed to using the ground to hit people. However, my teacher always preached that it's easier to throw someone after you've "properly distracted" them with a little blunt trauma. Obviously, our jujitsu was very different from classical jujitsu and aikido ... probably because (as I was told) my teacher's teacher was ex-military (Spec Ops) and had been a H2H instructor for both military and federal agencies.

In a nut shell, I will hit a person and I will throw them or lock them up if the opportunity arises (hopefully while I remain standing). If I end up on the ground with them, then I will use what Catch I know ... and IF NECESSARY I have no problem with applying sharpened steel until they're glad to let me up.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that there's a LOT more to BJJ than what you typically see. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone took a good MA and morphed it into some commercialized crap so they could make a buck off of John Q. Public.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

Gaucho · Mar 29, 2001

Dave...

Great minds think alike

. I figured that you must already be exploring this more effective way of EHs. Man, do opponents hate to fight you when everything they throw at you meets a forearm or elbow and you immediately close with pokes and slaps into trapping/ throwing range. Its a beautiful thing

.

Do you guys work the kin jit(hip lever) and puter kapata(head lever rotation) throws? They are relatively easy to achieve when you close in this manner.

Leo...

So, you guys are headed north? Outstanding! Do you know where you're going to be yet? Maybe we can find a way to meet up and train together someday soon. That goes for you too, Dave. We should find some good seminar someday where we can meet finally.

Peace and good training to both of you.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.

[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-28-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-28-2001).]

Dave Fulton · Mar 28, 2001

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gaucho:
Dave...

Great minds think alike

. I figured that you must already be exploring this more effective way of EHs. Man, do opponents hate to fight you when everything they throw at you meets a forearm or elbow and you immediately close with pokes and slaps into trapping/ throwing range. Its a beautiful thing

.

Do you guys work the kin jit(hip lever) and puter kapata(head lever rotation) throws? They are relatively easy to achieve when you close in this manner.
</font>

Gaucho,

I love EH's but right now sparring is very frustrating for me. I'm at a point where my fighting style is changing and things aren't working because the new stuff & old stuff are conflicting with each other. I feel schizophrenic. Have you ever experienced that in sparring?

I'm drawing a blank on kin jit/hip lever. Can you describe the technique? As for Puter Kapata, I do them. Funny thing, learned that one years ago but only recently realized that it's really the same throw as Ten Shin (sp?) "Heaven and Earth" throw from jujitsu. Actually, to clarify ... I learned two PK's (they differ in the direction of rotation) and one of them is similar to "Heaven and Earth". A nice "distraction" that you can add to the PK is to deliver a forearm strike to the throat as you reach for the back of their head. Don't hit them too hard though or it will throw them back too far to get the PK. You just want to jolt them a little.

I'd love to get together and train someday.

Respectfully,

Dave

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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

Leo Daher · Mar 28, 2001

Mario,

Somewhere in Florida, I believe. The ol' lady wants to finish college (Psychology - might come in handy

) in the US, and she has yet to choose an institution. We might have to wait till the end of the year though (and the waiting, as you know, is the hardest part...).

You can be sure that I'll find a way for us to train together, even if it's only once (hopefully more, of course)! A seminar sounds like a great idea.
I'll let you know as things develop.

Leo

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"Though the meek shall inherit the Earth, they won't keep it past Saturday night..."

Gaucho · Mar 29, 2001

OK, the kin jit(also called inversion).

Let's keep it simple- you and your opponent are squared off in parallel structure, both in R hand, R leg lead.

He throws a jab with his R hand(obviously). You execute a double parry- L hand, then R forearm as you close and your R palm smashes him across the face, twisting his head to the L. You instantly follow through with your L hand and forearm smashing across his face as you step forward with your L leg, putting it to the outside of his R leg.

So, this places you in the kin jit- i.e., with your L arm across the front of his face/neck/chest area and your L hip behind and below his R hip with your L leg behind his. Now all you do is lift up and forward slightly with your L hip as you pull backwards with your L arm, and up and over he goes, head over heels, and lands on his head.

The kin jit is wicked fast and hard to defend against when done correctly. And obviously it can be done off the other side as well.

Hard to describe, but easy to do. Give it a try and let me know how you like it.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.

[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 03-29-2001).]

Chad W. Getz FCSH · Mar 30, 2001

Gaucho, I also like this from the clinch, as I'm sure you know. From a greco tie-up this sets yo up nice and can follow up with many different variations, one which includes going straight for a mount or modified arm bar, if you like, of course.

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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com

Gaucho · Mar 30, 2001

Hey Chad

,

You are absolutely right. Once you start thinking along the lines of the kin jit hip lever throw, you find opportunities to use it everywhere.

Another place where its good is in double knife Vs double knife. In quartering or encircling maneuvers(critical in 2 Vs. 2 blade fights), you can cut and then move to the outside of your opponent's attacking blade, flanking him. You slide into the kin jit as you close, controlling his hip and unbalancing him, while you use one of your blades to trap his nearside blade arm against his body, leaving his entire nearside flank exposed for the coup de grace.

Dave...I absolutely know what you mean about feeling awkward in one's sparring. It happens to me everytime I learn a new skillset that I really like and want to integrate it into my fighting. Until I have the new stuff fully grooved, Man, my fighting takes three giant steps backwards in proficiency! I find myself thinking too much during the fight and not being in the flow of the moment. Its a scary and frustrating time, without a doubt. But, I figure its a small price to pay to(hopefully) become a more well-rounded fighter. Besides, I think its really good to shake things up, to reexamine your fighting with a critical eye every couple of years. So hang in there. It'll come.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.

Dave Fulton · Mar 30, 2001

Mario,

Thanks for the encouragement and description of kin jit/hip lever throw. It's nice to know that it's not unusual and that you work through it in time. Your description was fine. I do use kin jit ... and now I have a name for it too!

Man, you spar double knife! I LOVE to spar double knife!

I prefer to use sabre or hammer grip in my right hand and ice-pick/reverse grip in my left. I prefer the versitility of being able to do everything from snap cuts to those nasty ice-pick thrusts.

How about you, what's your preference?

Btw, my appologies to Sumbrada77. This thread has degenerated into a discussion of everything EXCEPT the style of blade he was asking about ... and I don't think he ever got an answer either. Sorry man.

Take it easy everyone!

Dave

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Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."