Curious price relationships among some Spyderco knives

T

ThumperACC

Joined
Feb 28, 2009
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Hi All,

Consider the following 3 knives, with prices all from the same online retailer.

Sage, 3" blade, S30V, Carbon Fiber, liner lock, Taiwan $94
Native4 3.08" blade, VG10, Carbon Fiber, back lock, Seki City $162
Native 3.125" blade, S30V, FRN, back lock, Golden Co. $62

Now, my curiousity began when I compared the Native4 with the Sage. They are substatially the same knife with the exception of the blade steel and lock mechanism. I thought, "why is the Native4 so much more expensive?". Well, it's made in Seki City...but it also has (what I think is) a less expensive blade steel. So "made in Seki City" must carry quite a premium.

Then a friend told me he bought a Native FRN. This is $100 less expensive than the Native4. The Native FRN also has the S30V steel and is made in Golden Colorado, USA Earth, which I think would command a similar premium (labor rates and all) as made in Seki City Japan. I'm sure FRN is quite a bit less expensive than CF. So one would think the Native FRN should be around the same or a bit less expensive than the Native4.

Can anyone shed some light on this? Is it just popularity of a new design (Native4)? Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks,
Mike
 
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The Native doesn't have liners. It's a simple pinned plastic handle. It's been made for awhile so the tooling I'm sure is paid for.

The native 4 has liners, carbon fiber slabs, more material ground off of the blade, screw together rather than the pinned construction of the native. All of these would account for much higher assembly and manufacturing time, also with more processes to go wrong I assume their scrap rate would be higher.

The difference between the Sage and the Native 4. I would have to guess is a pretty simple difference in labor rates between Japan and Taiwan. Also a backlock could be a little more expensive, or difficult to machine than a liner lock.

I am just guessing.
Hope it helps and I'm not totally wrong,
Shane
 
that is really weird i have to be honest... umm the prices i found match the ones you gave or at least they are within 5 or 10 dollars of the ones you gave... the only thing i can think to tell you is that the native 4 is a newer design so demand for it is up i would think... i also know how popular the other natives were so i am sure this one is just as popular if not more popular than its predecessors ... however i think if you wait on that native four itll drop in price... i would be curious if anybody else has any other reason why these prices would be like this
 
slimshaneee said:
The Native doesn't have liners. It's a simple pinned plastic handle. It's been made for awhile so the tooling I'm sure is paid for.

The native 4 has liners, carbon fiber slabs, more material ground off of the blade, screw together rather than the pinned construction of the native. All of these would account for much higher assembly and manufacturing time, also with more processes to go wrong I assume their scrap rate would be higher.

The difference between the Sage and the Native 4. I would have to guess is a pretty simple difference in labor rates between Japan and Taiwan. Also a backlock could be a little more expensive, or difficult to machine than a liner lock.

I am just guessing.
Hope it helps and I'm not totally wrong,
Shane
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OK, good info on the Native, I didn't know it did not have liners (my friend just ordered it) and good point about the tooling having been paid for.

I'm sure Japan is more expensive labor wise, but I'd think a liner lock could be just as demanding to make as far as precision goes. There is very little difference (tolerance wise) between a liner lock that locks up great and one that is a peice of $hit. And getting a back lock to line up perfect and be smooth can be challenging as well.

It'll be interesting to see as different people weigh in on this.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Carbon Fiber is insanely expensive. The difference in the S90V/S30V Military was about $100.

The Native (original) has molded FRN handles and it's pinned. Easier to construct and produce.

The Sage is made in Taiwan. I can't comment too much about it because I don't own one, but I'm guessing it's just labor rates.
 
ThumperACC said:
OK, good info on the Native, I didn't know it did not have liners (my friend just ordered it) and good point about the tooling having been paid for.

I'm sure Japan is more expensive labor wise, but I'd think a liner lock could be just as demanding to make as far as precision goes. There is very little difference (tolerance wise) between a liner lock that locks up great and one that is a peice of $hit. And getting a back lock to line up perfect and be smooth can be challenging as well.

It'll be interesting to see as different people weigh in on this.

Thanks,
Mike
Click to expand...

The Native IV has a lot more machining and steel that goes into it than the Sage.

The Sage is 3 cylindrical backspacers, 2 carbon fiber slabs, the liners, the blade and a couple washers.

The Native IV is a fully closed machined steel back, back lock, full skeletonized liners, and 4 cylindrical spacers holding the scales and liners together.

Unfortunately, and I seem to be alone on this--you're right about the back lock. The Native I had was not very smooth closing at all, and the lock had more vertical blade play than my Delica 4 or Caly 3. I sent it back, had it repaired, but that and some other minor details about the knife (like grind issues) bugged me enough that I returned it.

I seem to be alone in my assessment, though, and am pretty demanding. I wrote a glowing review for the knife right after I received it, but after the initial "wow" factor wore off, I started noticing things that bugged me about it.

The one I got, unfortunately, was not finished as perfectly as my Caly 3 or Delica 4. YMMV.
 
ThumperACC said:
OK, good info on the Native, I didn't know it did not have liners (my friend just ordered it) and good point about the tooling having been paid for.

I'm sure Japan is more expensive labor wise, but I'd think a liner lock could be just as demanding to make as far as precision goes. There is very little difference (tolerance wise) between a liner lock that locks up great and one that is a peice of $hit. And getting a back lock to line up perfect and be smooth can be challenging as well.

It'll be interesting to see as different people weigh in on this.

Thanks,
Mike
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Well Mike, I'd be curious to know exactly how much do you feel should Spyderco raise the prices of the Native and Sage to put them into what you would consider to be proper balance with price of the Native IV?

As for me, I have no problem with the prices being the way they are. Labor costs, exchange rates, design complexity, anticipated production quantity all enter into it. The Native IV's intended role as a low production stalking horse for a revised US built Native is probably a factor as well.

Paul
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i picked up a native frn from wally world today for $20, where do you see em for $62, unless im wrong with my model, which i very well could be.
 
supasuprab0b said:
i picked up a native frn from wally world today for $20, where do you see em for $62, unless im wrong with my model, which i very well could be.
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They are clearing them out in favor of a different lineup. If you can possibly swing it, I would pick up a second one, because you will never see them at that price again.
 
The Deacon said:
Well Mike, I'd be curious to know exactly how much do you feel should Spyderco raise the prices of the Native and Sage to put them into what you would consider to be proper balance with price of the Native IV?
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

I don't feel that Spyderco should adjust the price of any of the 3 knives. I am just seeking to learn the differences that account for the price difference.

Thanks,
Mike
 
A.P.F. said:
They are clearing them out in favor of a different lineup. If you can possibly swing it, I would pick up a second one, because you will never see them at that price again.
Click to expand...

true, i think i got the last one my walmart had. i made a thread with pics, which you posted in as well lol.
 
Hi Thumper,

We operte on relatively fixed margins. There are many factors, as Paul mentioned, that govern price, but for us, they are all directly attached to our costs.

We believe that to "charge as much as the market will bear" is "biting the hand that feeds you". We try to keep prices as low as possible, but still make enough margin to run our business.

Some of the factors:

Exchange rate of country of origin
Materials used
Steel costs alone can vary by 300%
complexity of manufacture
Tooling costs over how many proposed pieces
Trading companies where used

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Thumper,

We operte on relatively fixed margins. There are many factors, as Paul mentioned, that govern price, but for us, they are all directly attached to our costs.

We believe that to "charge as much as the market will bear" is "biting the hand that feeds you". We try to keep prices as low as possible, but still make enough margin to run our business.

Some of the factors:

Exchange rate of country of origin
Materials used
Steel costs alone can vary by 300%
complexity of manufacture
Tooling costs over how many proposed pieces
Trading companies where used

sal
Click to expand...


Hi Sal,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Since having made my original post, I have learned (from one of your posts on the Spyderco.com forums) that the Native4 is produced in very low numbers. This (in my mind) could alone account for the higher price of the Native4. Non-recurring engineering and tooling costs amortized over small quantities can add significant cost to an item.

For what it's worth, I purchased a Native4 today. I think it will make a fine EDC. I look forward to getting it next week.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Anyone has the SKU for the native in walmart? I need to call them in since I'm fairly far away from all the walmarts around here.
 
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